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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    My best friend is an ESTJ, but I don't work for her

    I have 2 ESTJ ex-bosses- I didn't particularly get along with either of them (hence the EX boss part). They were suspicious of me because I'm not very good at following the rules or anything and I spent most of my time trying to squirm out from under rules and regulations that I thought were silly.

    Best I can tell you is just learn to be cautious about who you tell what to, because my ex-bosses played politics and were snoopy, and watch your back. Sometimes explaining WHY things would be better another way or so works, but that's if you have a healthy ESTJ boss, which I didn't.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #12
    Member TheJimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplacesyoullgo
    I swear that all ESTJs are scared of NTs. You can just feel the paranoia seeping through their pores, because they know that you're a million times brighter, wittier, and more interesting than them.
    iSelfEsteem++
    "Whoever stands on the highest mountains laughs at all tragic plays and tragic seriousness." ~Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #13
    Member mtaclof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplacesyoullgo View Post
    I swear that all ESTJs are scared of NTs. You can just feel the paranoia seeping through their pores, because they know that you're a million times brighter, wittier, and more interesting than them.
    You'll probably be miserable, but honestly, trying to get him to see the light is never going to work and not worth it.
    I agree with both comments, especially the second. For so long I tried to push back against types like this when they tried to stifle what I perceived as helpful discussion, usually about changing something that works acceptably, but not exactly efficiently, or changing something that's been in place as is for a long time.

    The bolded part is so true for me. I went so long assuming that these types would have the same openness that I do, since I didn't have much experience with those who aren't very open, as they never seem to be a part of my circle. Life is much easier when you present what suggestions you can, and when they start to shut you out and ignore/otherwise discount your ideas, just stop. The harder you try to make them see the light, the more they pull the blinds over their eyes.

    Disclaimer: I'm not saying all ESTJ folk are like this, it's simply a tendency that they have, and should all be aware of. Stubborn ignorance is never appealing, and it can present in all types.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    In life I've learned to deal with ESTJs in non personal relations like this: Nod your head and don't say a word. Do everything he says. If he screws up it's his fault, you were just doing as you were told.
    Totally agree.

    I also agree with whatever's comment about watching what you say to others. Don't go through with any plan attempting to bring him down unless you're positive it will work (and even then...). Otherwise, he'll make your life even more miserable.

    I've worked with three ESTJs - all female and all absolutely insufferable (from an ENTJ point of view, at least). All were upset with their position in life and took it out on people below them by becoming obnoxious control freaks, enforcing every banal regulation possible.

    All I can say is just remember how much your asshole ESTJ is dying from envy of you.

  5. #15
    HUZZAH! Bougal's Avatar
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    I work in the legal field, and I am around a lot of people that could be perceived as being very intimidating (attorneys and judges). It would be acceptable to be incapable of talking in front of them, but I engage in debates and conversations very naturally, and I conduct myself very professionally. Then, I talk to the narrow minded ESTJ that leads the youth group I volunteer for and I am tongue tied- - I became a sheepish little kid, but there is nothing about him that should intimidate me. I would expect that I could kick his ass in an argument or do some crazy little ENTJ intimidation. But I cant. And it bugs me. He yells at me about stupid rules and finds out about all of my little moral slip ups, but completely overlooks all of the positive things I do (and I volunteer about 10 hours minimum a week). All I can do it just take his little pedantic, illogical rants and go back to doing what I was doing before his irrational rule tried to stop me. Bwah ha hah. Im sorry you have a real ESTJ boss.


    Ne > Ni > Ti > Fi > Te> Fe > Se > Si

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bougal View Post
    Then, I talk to the narrow minded ESTJ that leads the youth group I volunteer for and I am tongue tied- - I became a sheepish little kid, but there is nothing about him that should intimidate me. I would expect that I could kick his ass in an argument or do some crazy little ENTJ intimidation. But I cant. And it bugs me. He yells at me about stupid rules and finds out about all of my little moral slip ups, but completely overlooks all of the positive things I do (and I volunteer about 10 hours minimum a week). All I can do it just take his little pedantic, illogical rants and go back to doing what I was doing before his irrational rule tried to stop me. Bwah ha hah. Im sorry you have a real ESTJ boss.
    YES. Absolutely AGREED to all of this, 100%. I have no idea why I turn into a little wimp in front of them, but I do. Maybe because I feel like I have to constantly analyze every little thing I say to them for fear they'll take it the wrong way.

  7. #17
    HUZZAH! Bougal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplacesyoullgo View Post
    YES. Absolutely AGREED to all of this, 100%. I have no idea why I turn into a little wimp in front of them, but I do. Maybe because I feel like I have to constantly analyze every little thing I say to them for fear they'll take it the wrong way.
    I'm glad I'm not alone. I thought I was going soft for a moment

    I know three others really well, and they don't have the same power over me. The first is my uncle and we give each other hell, but it is done in a loving kind of way. Then there was a prosecutor from my mock trial team that was the valedictorian and is going to Harvard. She was cool and I enjoyed being around her but she was a bit intimidating because of her loudness and manliness. The third (low on the S) is the smartest man I know. He is a little factoid encyclopedia, and is invincible in debate, but he is far too overbearingly conservative for my taste. I like him a lot, but I can only take so much.


    Ne > Ni > Ti > Fi > Te> Fe > Se > Si

  8. #18
    Member Sachetan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplacesyoullgo View Post
    YES. Absolutely AGREED to all of this, 100%. I have no idea why I turn into a little wimp in front of them, but I do. Maybe because I feel like I have to constantly analyze every little thing I say to them for fear they'll take it the wrong way.
    It seems we know ESTJs in our lives pretty well

    I can feel he's suspicious of me and because of that I do watch and calculate what I can say around him carefully. And that's so sad since debating ideas should be the main part of our interaction. He even blames me for finding and repairing flaws in projects or trying to bring totally new elements and ideas in - and that should be my job!

    It's clear that he needs a yes-team around him and that's the people he's now bringing in our team. I feel I'm soon surrounded by puppets!

  9. #19
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    I left my last job to go freelance due to similar office politics. It sucked to go into the abyss of irregular income, but I am much healthier for it, albeit broke.

    anyhow, if you really want to stay with this company, figure out what allies you might have in upper management. A good boss recognizes the abilities and strengths of the employees that make the company work. My problem was that the owner wanted sycophants around him. His problem is that all of the good people he had working for him left the company and his empire is noticeably on the decline.

    Perhaps your situation is different. You won't be happy continuing to do crappy assignments under a dangerously incompetent supervisor, and if the management level just above him is charmed out of your control, simply go a level higher.

    What you need to cover your ass is a paper trail. Get everything in writing/email. It is understandable that lower level employees might have fear to speak out, so you cannot rely on their words for backup. The guy knows he can push your buttons verbally, because there is nothing you can do save secretly recording the conversations to prove your story. if the guy has charmed hte highest levels of management/ownership in the company, you have a lto of work cut out to build a case. it might be wiser to consider that his sort of operating is rewarded and I would seek new employment before you are abruptly fired or the company simply dissolves.

  10. #20
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Sachetan, it sounds like you would make a great scapegoat for him in the future, especially if he is bringing in drones to the team to dilute the innovation and honesty. It sounds like you might need to play the political game and make sure your ass is covered. He is not a leader, and would not stand by his employees if anything went wrong. Even if he made a mistake somehow, I'll bet you could see a way for him to spin the blame on you or another minimally involved employee.

    What are your options? You can't take him down directly unless you have evidence that he has not only goofed somehow, but that the board or his employees are looking for a chance to get rid of him. Politics politics bullshit politics.
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

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