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  1. #41
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Sure, logic "exists", but a logical life, a rational life? I don't think that those exist, not even in theory.
    I agree, and I was pointing out that for logic to exist, does not assume the premise to be soundly based in reality. As such:

    Which is value-based, which is what I'm getting at, because in actuality, you didn't need a car to leave. You could have used any of the millions of other options, or not left at all.
    is irrelevant to proving whether my thought aligned in a logical fashion with a given premise versus my dad, regardless of any commentary on the premise itself.




    Here is what you're forgetting. You left off entirely a premise. No person has just one goal, they have multiple priorities, and they must weigh the cost and benefits of them all the time to determine what actions to take (which is subjective). Your dad had the goal of avoiding the smoke in his car. At the time, this was a higher priority than leaving quickly. Therefore, his decision does not contradict the premise. You clearly did not have this priority, so from your perspective, waiting the extra 10 minutes was illogical. But even then, you did it, because you had the priority of wishing to maintain a good relationship with your dad (or something similar), so it wasn't actually illogical.
    You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. The premise is given. This is our assumption. Both needed cars. That which FOLLOWS from the premise....
    ...is it logical? Or not?

    Calling into question the premise itself changes the whole situation and doesn't really answer whether a line of thought that follows is logical or not.


    But an entirely objective premise cannot be made in regards to human goals. Every goal is entirely subjective. The only objective premises that exist are natural laws, physics n' such.
    I think you have to understand the function of a premise when one discusses logic:

    premise (logic) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

  2. #42
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post

    Okay, but that's besides the point.
    Um...not really (like, at ALL - well, unless you don't understand the political history of this conflict).

    You say: Israel versus Gaza. How can one, without compromising rationality, pick a side?

    I pointed out the great part that USA had to play. Hence, the only rational position, I would think, as you (being the global other - i.e., neither Israel nor Gaza), would be to say, LET IT BE BETWEEN JUST ISRAEL & GAZA. And, since USA has aided one side, but, not the other, wouldn't you, in order to maintain your middleground rationality be actually advocating for the USA to stop helping Israel (which would actually then result in being action-oriented than saying nothing/fence-sitting). No?

    Pray tell, how can you possibly make any kind of judgement about the Gaza conflict without appealing to emotion?

    Fence-sitting is the only rational option in this case.
    By allowing the conflict to be between the TWO sides that decided to engage in it. Hence, then advocating for the stopping of 'help' if one side gets it while the other doesn't. And, the side, then, becomes, by default, an advocacy for Gaza, but, the intention is not FOR/AGAINST a side, but, to reach the middleground you so believe in, in the first place.


    I don't see "value-based 'logic'" as genuine logic at all;
    Hence me ending my original post with logic in quotes, I was drawing an analogy for the merits of value-based decision-making to an audience that believes in the value of logic.

    Hence:
    That isn't logic. That's value-based reasoning or thinking.
    Duh.

  3. #43
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    stuff
    But you and your dad did not start with the same premises! If you did, then yes your dad would've been illogical, but you did not. You can't just assert what the premises were in that situation, because its clear the you and your dad did not agree on what they were.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  4. #44
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    But you and your dad did not start with the same premises! If you did, then yes your dad would've been illogical, but you did not. You can't just assert what the premises were in that situation, because its clear the you and your dad did not agree on what they were.
    We both agreed we needed cars to go to wherever we were going. I think I asserted, quite a few times, that the premise was: both needed cars to leave. Riiiight????

  5. #45
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    We both agreed we needed cars to go to wherever we were going. I think I asserted, quite a few times, that the premise was: both needed cars to leave. Riiiight????
    What you did not agree on: smoke in the car. Right?
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  6. #46
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    What you did not agree on: smoke in the car. Right?
    Nope. I didn't know about smoke in car (it was hypothesized as a reason to me by my friend, as her value-based 'logic' to the situation).

    Hence, again, it's a statement/conclusion, rather than the premise to the scenario posited.

    Problem at hand: both need cars to leave

    How did we solve it?

    From there we evaluate the logical steps (or not) to reach whatever conclusion each of us (me & my dad) reached.

  7. #47
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Nope. I didn't know about smoke in car (it was hypothesized as a reason to me by my friend, as her value-based 'logic' to the situation).

    Hence, again, it's a statement/conclusion, rather than the premise to the scenario posited.

    Problem at hand: both need cars to leave

    How did we solve it?

    From there we evaluate the logical steps (or not) to reach whatever conclusion each of us (me & my dad) reached.
    It wasn't said, so you didn't agree on it, but it was still a premise held by your dad.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  8. #48
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    It wasn't said, so you didn't agree on it, but it was still a premise held by your dad.
    ?? Huh??
    That's...how shall I put it....illogical.

    A premise not stated cannot lead to a logical deduction (or not) because one wouldn't know where to start.

    Just like my premise of needing to leave early is irrelevant, and I would not fault my dad for not following from that premise. It wasn't stated.

    What was stated, and known by both: we both need cars to leave.

  9. #49
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    ?? Huh??
    That's...how shall I put it....illogical.

    A premise not stated cannot lead to a logical deduction (or not) because one wouldn't know where to start.

    Just like my premise of needing to leave early is irrelevant, and I would not fault my dad for not following from that premise. It wasn't stated.

    What was stated, and known by both: we both need cars to leave.
    Consider that there might be other premises that precluded telling you about the smoke. Maybe he didn't want to hurt your feelings, maybe he wanted to avoid conflict, maybe he didn't want to seem selfish, maybe any millions of possibilities.

    Though, I'm probably getting off into too much of a theoretical perspective here. Yes, if the only premise was needing to leave in cars efficiently, then your dad's actions could be seen as irrational. Not knowing the full situation, I can only speculate, and therefore I suppose I shall leave the judging of that to you.

    ie, I'm backin' out of this argument.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  10. #50
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    As far as human evolution is concerned, compassion is completely logical. It makes sense that a species would develop emotional capacities that further the goal of protecting and preserving the species.

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