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  1. #1
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Hi

    I've decided to change thread as it's cluttering up the other one.

    Wanted to come back to you on the following

    "MBTI uses Jung as a starting point and then pretty much develops its own systems from there.

    It's a gross oversimplification to say that Jung was based on astrology, even if he liked it.

    PLEASE explain, though, how as little information as someone's DOB can give you any insight into his personality whatsoever?

    Why is MBTI taught in college psych courses and astrology not?


    I wish you would stop coming back with another 6 paragraphs about astrology when you've done nothing to explain how DOB leads to specific information on personality. It's blatantly obvious that MBTI is different because it requests specific information from specific people and then simply groups it into behavioral tendencies. Astrology doesn't do that; it makes random guesses based on no information but DOB--which has never, ever been shown to have any substantial connection to behavioral trends in any way.

    PLEASE ADDRESS THIS!"

    If you'd read much about astrology you'd realise how much of Jung is directly watered down astrology so I'm pretty confident you have not.

    Secondly MBTI is not proven - read Wiki it says so, it is useful but far from definative. Many psycologists consider it a bit wooly as people move between types quite easily.

    Thirdly I think you mustn't live in the real world. If you go into a shop and ask for credit, they score you on your post code. Experian data in the UK is used to direct market to you and profile your behaviour - just on your post code.

    It's called central tendancies.....

    You are part of generation that is based on the year of your birth.

    It is possible to identify if you are likely to be a criminal based on the area you were born in. Your likely educational attainment, the work you are likely to do, there are even data bases that can guess the name of unborn children in your area (all pretty freaky stuff).

    Lots of ways are you categorised for mass market based on very little - many of these methods are good enough to use.

    Astrology is just a compelxt segmentation tool, it uses 11 data points that have relationships between them. These date points have the opporuntities to be in 360 different locations, therfore more personalised than credit scoring companies, or profilers. Basically astrology just interprets astronomy data. It can work very well when used properly. In the wrong hands it can be really poor too.

    Lots of different ways you are classified without ever knowing it.


    Lis

  2. #2
    Member TheJimbo's Avatar
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    MBTI takes 4 broad, important aspects of a person and uses them to predict & describe behavior of the person.

    Astrology takes 1 narrow, unimportant aspect of a person and uses it to predict & describe behavior of a person or events in the world.

    Certainly we can say that a child born in 2008 is more likely to be technologically adept than someone born in 1950. This is because technology and related education are directly tied to a large-scale timeline. But there are very few, if any elements of personality or life in general that can be tied to a small-scale timeline (months or days of the year).

    You have yet to propose a sound correlation between date of birth and personality traits.
    "Whoever stands on the highest mountains laughs at all tragic plays and tragic seriousness." ~Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #3
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Here's the thing with astrology...why would someone born on January 17th and someone else born on January 20th be MORE different than someone born on January 1st and someone born on the 17th?

    The only argument I can think of for astrology is that it's possible that certain weather patterns can correlate to learning curves -- for instance, maybe two children that are 2 years old in the summer are more likely to have a similar life-shaping experience at a simliar developmental time due to sunlight. But that seems like a pretty big stretch, and wouldn't explain the exactitide of astrology at all, nor would it address my first question.

    MBTI takes behaviors and labels them with words. It's descriptive, not prescriptive. Astrology takes an almost random trait and PRESCRIPTIVELY packages people up into neat little archetypes. There's no room to change type if you behave differently. With MBTI, you can research and introspect to figure out a type. With astrology, it's already been [deep, booming voice] -- "determined by the stars".

  4. #4
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Guys

    MBTI is unproven, not validated scientifically, so you are on pretty thin Ice. I ran a nationally representive sample and had the largest number of unclassifiable people I've come across.

    Astrology is not about date of birth, it factors in Date, time and place. Which make even identical twins uneque from each other (they can't be born at exactly the same moment). Those data are fed through astronmic data to give exact locations of 10 planets (Sun, Moon, Merucury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, Node and Asc, MC/IC), thats a lot of data from just time place and date. So two people born on the 1st of January, 1980 20 minutes apart can have different life events. They will be very similar, have similar life events but can be experienced very differently.

    I know someone who was born within 5 minutes of me in Guatamala, the similarities of major life events were uncanny. His mum died within weeks of my dad, and vice versa for my Mum to his dad. In 2003 I got broken into 3 times in London, he got broken into within that same time period too. His chart isn't exactly the same because of the locational differences, and the impact they have on his chart, but the events are same. We both also spent time unemployed that summer - more or less at the same time.


    Lis

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    MBTI is unproven, not validated scientifically, so you are on pretty thin Ice. I ran a nationally representive sample and had the largest number of unclassifiable people I've come across.

    Astrology is not about date of birth, it factors in Date, time and place. Which make even identical twins uneque from each other (they can't be born at exactly the same moment). Those data are fed through astronmic data to give exact locations of 10 planets (Sun, Moon, Merucury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, Node and Asc, MC/IC), thats a lot of data from just time place and date. So two people born on the 1st of January, 1980 20 minutes apart can have different life events. They will be very similar, have similar life events but can be experienced very differently.
    Meh. As far as I've ever seen in my life, astrology is more Forer effect than even the most blindly formulated personality test (MBTI or not) I've seen online.

    There is no known pathway for spatial presence or birth to directly impact consistent generalizable patterns in behavior in a random individual.

    None.

    How do I view horoscopes?
    I view them as mantras or focal points.
    Not much different than those little "Daily Bread" devotionals that religious people use.

    "Today we shall focus on <this aspect of who I am>."

    There's no predictive capability, it's merely a tool that is used to give people a focal point for their efforts to become better human beings in some way. One could 'swap' all the horoscopes for a given day with no one able to tell the wiser, honestly. People would still say it worked for them. Because the point is not to be predictive, it's to provide focus.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I wont talk you out of astrology, because you seem to be happy with it.

    Astrology was very popular in the medievil for people to seek a purpose to their life. Maybe one day, you shall think about that..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #7
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Guys

    MBTI is unproven, not validated scientifically, so you are on pretty thin Ice. I ran a nationally representive sample and had the largest number of unclassifiable people I've come across.

    Astrology is not about date of birth, it factors in Date, time and place. Which make even identical twins uneque from each other (they can't be born at exactly the same moment). Those data are fed through astronmic data to give exact locations of 10 planets (Sun, Moon, Merucury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, Node and Asc, MC/IC), thats a lot of data from just time place and date. So two people born on the 1st of January, 1980 20 minutes apart can have different life events. They will be very similar, have similar life events but can be experienced very differently.

    I know someone who was born within 5 minutes of me in Guatamala, the similarities of major life events were uncanny. His mum died within weeks of my dad, and vice versa for my Mum to his dad. In 2003 I got broken into 3 times in London, he got broken into within that same time period too. His chart isn't exactly the same because of the locational differences, and the impact they have on his chart, but the events are same. We both also spent time unemployed that summer - more or less at the same time.


    Lis
    Correlation does not equate to causation. I think more people are interested, not in how the nooks and crannies of astrology works, but, WHY it's supposed to work. What is the justification for *why* planetary alignments would affect the course of a person's life? For every good theory, there is a justification for WHY one connects to the other.

    As well, this all relies on the basis of determinism (vs. free will), which then is assumed to be the course of the natural universe. Again, justify...why?

    I, personally, rose from a culture heavily entrenched in astrology (more specifically, Vedic astrology, which, once I sat down with an astrologer, and looked through his heavy books of calculations, I was dumbfounded by the amount of thought and energy invested in this, they do practice it like a science...I will refrain from making any commentary regarding anecdotes of his skills). Yet, I am still a skeptic, and it is for the above reason...no one has been able to: (a) justify that we are subject to determinism versus having free will, (b) the justification of why a person's course can be laid out by planetary alignments...

    aside - if (b) can be justified, then we should be able to apply astrology to predict the course of ALL animals, no?
    Last edited by Qre:us; 01-27-2009 at 05:16 PM. Reason: misquoted - fixed!

  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    aside - if (b) can be justified, then we should be able to apply astrology to predict the course of ALL animals, no?
    Naw. People are special.
    (because we invented astrology. )

    Hmm. I wonder if monkeys have their own chinese new year chart with human beings as one of the 12 species.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Te > Fi > Ni Shaula's Avatar
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    It is possible to identify if you are likely to be a criminal based on the area you were born in. Your likely educational attainment, the work you are likely to do, there are even data bases that can guess the name of unborn children in your area (all pretty freaky stuff).
    Yes and it's based on behavioural patterns of certain groups of people. MBTI does the same thing, looking for behavioural and thinking patterns to predict a likely outcome of a person's personality (like those little snipets you see on PersonalityPage that are freakishly correct). Astrology does not look at a person's behaviour patterns but at the time and place of their birth in conjuction with the alignment of the planets and stars which defines their behaviour. Logically speaking, this is backwards. The only way to scientifically prove astrology would be to scientifically prove an existance of a deity or some other higher power influencing it. I'm not saying MBTI is perfect, but it is more scientifically reliable than astrology. Also people are not confinded to only having certain behavioural and thinking patterns as our personalities are always evolving until we die (even if minimally) due to our ongoing experiences. This might explain the 'wooliness' of MBTI.

    Astrology is just a compelxt segmentation tool, it uses 11 data points that have relationships between them. These date points have the opporuntities to be in 360 different locations, therfore more personalised than credit scoring companies, or profilers. Basically astrology just interprets astronomy data. It can work very well when used properly. In the wrong hands it can be really poor too.

    Lots of different ways you are classified without ever knowing it.
    Meaning that astrology is very ambugious, which leads room for interpetation. Given enough leeway and you can interpret anything from an ambugious statement. Like in this experiment on horoscopes.
    Is not to be held accuntable for peeling errors.

  10. #10
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    MBTI does not look at behavioural patterns and tries to predict an outcome. It gives human actions a name.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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