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  1. #51
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    long post
    Ok, so natal astrology gives general tendencies, in what ways you would tend to react in certain types of situations. Predictive astrology tells you how your day will turn out. Correct?

    If so, is natal astrology and predictive astrology under the same system? (how to word this...) Are they two subsets of the same theory, somewhat different applications, but the same process (the planets alignmnets) determines the results?

    Also, how much influence do the planets have? Could you, at least in theory, predict the entirety of a person's life down to every detail?

  2. #52
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I'm jumping in ... *ohh, as predicted, cold water* ... but I'll brave the elements to add a few comments of my own.

    Have any of the astrology naysayers in this thread actually had a chart done? (Tsk, tsk to all you T's if you haven't yet are debating in this thread.) Personally, I had two done in 2005, for fun. First, a chart that was intended to profile my personality; the second, a chart that was to predict my life trends for the years 2005 - 2006 (and outline some longer trends to 2010'ish.)

    1.) The psychological or natal chart was, in my opinion, almost as accurate as reading a description of my MBTI type. It described my parents, the type of relationship they shared, my "infp-ness" for lack of a better term, the types of men I am attracted to and some quirks that don't fit the MBTI mold. Length of chart: about 20 pages of typewritten text. Degree of accuracy: ~65-70%. (Bearing in mind of course, the tendency to fit oneself within the words, which I can be as guilty of here as with the MBTI.) Some bits I didn't agree with at all. But, I was surprised at how specific and accurate some of it was. Reading my natal chart was as eye-opening to me as the first time I read a description of my MBTI type.

    2.) Re-reading the predictive chart in the "here & now" of 2009, was it accurate? In my analysis, it is written in too vague a way to numerically assess with a percentage. I did "buy into" some of the predicted trends, but really, it deals with generalities, not specifics. It is simply too easy to interpret it the way you want to.

    Do I think astrology is scientific and proven? No.

    Do I accept that there are forces influencing us beyond current human understanding? Yes.

    And perhaps everyone can agree on that.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    I shall quote Phil Plait

    ...astrology promotes the worst thing in the world: uncritical thinking. The more we teach people to simply accept anecdotal stories, hearsay, cherry-picked data (picking out what supports your claims but ignoring what doesn't), and, frankly, out-and-out lies, the harder it gets for people to think clearly. If you cannot think clearly, you cannot function as a human being. I cannot stress this enough. Uncritical thinking is tearing this world to pieces, and while astrology may not be at the heart of that, it has its role.
    ...Then I ducked my head and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark;
    And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark...

  4. #54
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    What evidence does Phil Plait present to support his opinion?

    Because ... it is an opinion.

    People have simply always had a need to explain the unexplainable. To categorize their lives and the systems that surround our lives. To make sense of things that seem to have no sense at all, to bring order to chaos.

    I don't think astrology is "the answer", is a better predictor of personality, or that you should base your whole life around it.

    If you have fact-based evidence to either prove or disprove it you will then have EVERYONE's attention.

    But it is a fundamentally weak argument to say that just because you can't prove astrology, it's not valid. And that's all that has been presented so far in this thread, imho.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Do I accept that there are forces influencing us beyond current human understanding? Yes.

    And perhaps everyone can agree on that.

    I disagree. What forces are you talking about?

    There are four forces in physics.

    Gravity
    Electromagnetism
    Weak Interaction (or Weak Nuclear Force)
    Strong Interaction (or Strong Nuclear Force)
    ...Then I ducked my head and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark;
    And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark...

  6. #56
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What evidence does Phil Plait present to support this opinion?

    Because ... it is an opinion.
    Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy: Misconceptions: Astrology

    He cites his sources at the bottom.

    It's a very good read.
    ...Then I ducked my head and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark;
    And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark...

  7. #57
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willfrey View Post
    Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy ... It's a very good read.
    I shall enjoy reading it tomorrow, must head to bed now.

    Just bear in mind folks, I AM NOT ENDORSING ASTROLOGY, I am simply pointing out the lack of fact based, logical arguments to disprove astrology in the posts thus far.

    Playing devil's advocate as it were.

    And the forces I cite above are "beyond current human understanding" thus ... they are not defined.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I shall enjoy reading it tomorrow, must head to bed now.

    Just bear in mind folks, I AM NOT ENDORSING ASTROLOGY, I am simply pointing out the lack of fact based, logical arguments to disprove astrology in the posts thus far.

    Playing devil's advocate as it were.
    Just the same I'm waiting for logical arguments to prove astrology.

    The too TL;DR version of the article:

    There is no force, known or unknown, that could possibly affect us here on Earth the way astrologers claim. Known forces weaken too fast, letting one source utterly dominate (the Moon for gravity, the Sun for electromagnetism). An unknown force would allow asteroids and extrasolar planets to totally overwhelm the nearby planets.

    Astrologers tend to rely on our ability to remember hits and forget misses. Even an accurate prediction may be simple chance.

    Study after study has shown that claims and predictions made by astrologers have no merit. They are indistinguishable from chance, which means astrologers cannot claim to have some ability to predict your life's path.

    There is harm, real harm, in astrology. It weakens further people's ability to rationally look at the world, an ability we need now more than ever.
    ...Then I ducked my head and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark;
    And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark...

  9. #59
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I shall enjoy reading it tomorrow, must head to bed now.

    Just bear in mind folks, I AM NOT ENDORSING ASTROLOGY, I am simply pointing out the lack of fact based, logical arguments to disprove astrology in the posts thus far.

    Playing devil's advocate as it were.

    And the forces I cite above are "beyond current human understanding" thus ... they are not defined.
    It's not the skeptics job to disprove anything. It's the one making the claim (in this case, that astrology works) to prove that it does. Otherwise, I could make any ridiculous claim I want, and you would be forced to believe me, because you can't disprove it. For example, I am God. You can't disprove this, any evidence you might find is fake, made by me to test my followers to see who has True Faith (tm).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Have any of the astrology naysayers in this thread actually had a chart done? (Tsk, tsk to all you T's if you haven't yet are debating in this thread.) Personally, I had two done in 2005, for fun. First, a chart that was intended to profile my personality; the second, a chart that was to predict my life trends for the years 2005 - 2006 (and outline some longer trends to 2010'ish.)
    Is there a place where I can get one (especially online) for free? Please point me to any astrology site you consider reliable.

  10. #60
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    It's not the skeptics job to disprove anything. It's the one making the claim (in this case, that astrology works) to prove that it does.
    I agree.

    And I agree that the OP has not proven astrology, far from it.

    I am only saying that you cannot use the argument "it's stupid" to disprove it.

    Perhaps the OP can point to a reliable free online source for a detailed birth chart. (I did pay for mine at the time.) I'll do a little research in the morning to see if any look promising too.

    Addition: Just in case you aren't "reading between the lines" in my post above, I believe the natal chart to be too accurate to be simply a "lucky guess" about me. But I have no rational argument to state why this should be so. The information used to create it was simply my exact time of birth and birthplace.

    Personally, I think this is a debate that is not a "winnable" one - the best result is a stalemate. But I wanted to toss my own experience in the ring, for what it's worth. And if anyone wants to mount a controlled research project with a renowned astrologist, I'd be fascinated to review the outcome!
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 01-30-2009 at 07:46 AM. Reason: added the "addition"

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