[MBTI General] stimulated world

[tinkerbell]

Ok, so natal astrology gives general tendencies, in what ways you would tend to react in certain types of situations. Predictive astrology tells you how your day will turn out. Correct?

If so, is natal astrology and predictive astrology under the same system? (how to word this...) Are they two subsets of the same theory, somewhat different applications, but the same process (the planets alignmnets) determines the results?

Also, how much influence do the planets have? Could you, at least in theory, predict the entirety of a person's life down to every detail?

Hi

some more sencible questions.

Natal astrology profiles who you are... what talents/weakensses you have. It gives a range of possibilites because people can use their talents differently... one arty person would do music, another paint, another cook etc...

An analogy.....If you say that Natal astrology says you have a knee, predictive astrology identifies the time when someone kicks you knee and hit s reflex action. Central tendancies of the Natal usually identifies if it will be stressful or not, or simply a major point in your life.

Predictive astrology is at it's best with BIG stuff. Day to day are a bit lame and a bit wishy washy. Big stuff is usually predicted by the slow planets (ie major life transits). These identify major events in your life. These heavier impacting planets work slowly so there is likely to be 8-10 week periords where tention build and events play out. The transiting planet starts to aspect the natal planet, makes the angle then moves on. IT then reverses back over the planet (usually at the strongest point) and then turns direct again and scoots on by. So slower planets usually make 3 hits of the natal planet, the middle one is often the strongest/has the most impact - although not always.

I once read for a skeptic on the plane, and he more or less said he thought it was rott. I correctly identified the preiod he was divorced in, and that h had fairly recently met the love of his life, saying she was a teacher or laywer... He was bowled over.

Can you predict life event for the whole of a period of life, well yes and no... You can see when things will be challenging. Tough aspects in childhood can leave hevier scars on a person or none at all because the child learns to deal with it. If they receive the same transit in their 30's it has a bigger impact on them.

Some planets make a number of cycles in a persons life, ou may have heard of Saturn Return, happening around 28.5 years. This is the gateway to true adulthood, this happens again in 28.5 years time or there abouts. The peson learns and matures and reacts differently even to th same transit...

Say for instance a person is born with viloence or abuse hall marked in their Natal chart, often the experience something bad in childhood or teen years. They may then go on to marry someone abusive and then leave them. They then open a refuse or something for people who have suffered from abuse. They are using their "abuse aspect" productively to help others... this usually stops the abuse happening directly to them.

Hopefully that makes sence

Lis

 

[tinkerbell]

I agree.

And I agree that the OP has not proven astrology, far from it.

I am only saying that you cannot use the argument "it's stupid" to disprove it.

Peace Baby - Love this, I'm not trying to prove astrology, just saying to folks that it's not all horoscopes and shouldn't be discarded just because someone says it's stupid. Done properly it can be sincerly informative and very useful tool to help people deal with themselves and others.

Astro.com gives a free chart interpretation but they are not fabulous, that requires a real person to work through your chart with you.

Lis

 

[Samurai Drifter]

Astrology is not about date of birth, it factors in Date, time and place. Which make even identical twins uneque from each other (they can't be born at exactly the same moment). Those data are fed through astronmic data to give exact locations of 10 planets (Sun, Moon, Merucury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, Node and Asc, MC/IC), thats a lot of data from just time place and date. So two people born on the 1st of January, 1980 20 minutes apart can have different life events. They will be very similar, have similar life events but can be experienced very differently.

First of all, the sun is a star and not a planet.

Secondly, the planets have absolutely nothing to do with the life one lives here on Earth. Any claim that it does is unfalsifiable and supported exclusively by anecdotal junk like your next story...

I know someone who was born within 5 minutes of me in Guatamala, the similarities of major life events were uncanny. His mum died within weeks of my dad, and vice versa for my Mum to his dad. In 2003 I got broken into 3 times in London, he got broken into within that same time period too. His chart isn't exactly the same because of the locational differences, and the impact they have on his chart, but the events are same. We both also spent time unemployed that summer - more or less at the same time.
Lis

Coincidence.

 

[ptgatsby]

Coincidence.

Not coincidence - selection bias, and a good example of it.

 

[tinkerbell]

Secondly, the planets have absolutely nothing to do with the life one lives here on Earth. Any claim that it does is unfalsifiable and supported exclusively by anecdotal junk like your next story...

Coincidence.

The arguments are getting well thin now....

The sun has no impact on us at all hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Samurai Drifter]

Oh, the sun does, simply because it heats and lights the solar system.

The other planets (besides Earth) don't have any kind of effect on human life unless you count the exceedingly minuscule gravitational pull Mars is exerting on your coffee mug. Astrology is without base or evidence. I wouldn't even give it the honor of being called pseudo-science.

 

[PeaceBaby]

tinkerbell, I empathize with you here but you may as well give it up - sadly, this is not a rational discussion in any way. I would encourage all the NT's posting to keep an open mind, since some of you are making global statements that can't be proven either.

 

[Anja]

Oh, the sun does, simply because it heats and lights the solar system.

The other planets (besides Earth) don't have any kind of effect on human life unless you count the exceedingly minuscule gravitational pull Mars is exerting on your coffee mug. Astrology is without base or evidence. I wouldn't even give it the honor of being called pseudo-science.

So does the moon, Samurai! Both physically and psychologically, it appears.

 

[tinkerbell]

PeaceB - who said discussions had to be rational.... I know there is no wining or loosing - I don't see myself trying to win anything, just putting an alternative perspective into the ethers...

L

 

[Willfrey]

I suppose astrology's greatest strength is how it never speaks in definates. It never simply states something will be one way and that is the end of it. I went ahead and did a natal chart and I could only laugh inwardly at all of the mights, the maybes, the may or may nots, the coulds, and the possibles. My favorite line:

You are religious by nature, and even if you profess to be a complete atheist

Are you kidding me?

The kicker is at the top it has a disclaimer about how it may not be accurate. Well it isn't worded as such but .. well here is the astrological jargon meant to cover their ass :

As you read your short report, or any other astrological report, keep in mind that the energies interpreted here are your birth potentials. However, you may or may not choose to actualize these energies in the manner described.

All the while the are dangling a 'full report' and dangle the 22.95 pricetag for such in front of you. The only people that truly benefit from astrology are those who stand to profit from it.

Tinkerbell, have you ever once looked over your astrological profile trying to critically debunk it? Do you believe your system is unflawed?

 

[tinkerbell]

Tinkerbell, have you ever once looked over your astrological profile trying to critically debunk it? Do you believe your system is unflawed?

Sadly free be computer reports are not brilliant but they give some insight about how it all works. The 29 pound version is better but not massively better. A proper reading with a proper astrologer is the thing that sets the pace. Computers haven't been programmed to really be able to interpret chart, it uses coffee table defintions and chucks them at you. If you are reading properly then they work together and in different ways at different times.

L

 

[Willfrey]

So in other words different versions of astrology are better than others, which naturally explains the flaws inherent in my profile of course.

This is why it doesn't stand up in a scientific standpoint. Jung's test (with all its flaws) I can understand because it takes data from what it attempts to describe. Astrology takes data from a completely unrelated source and tries to tie them into your personality and events. With the exception of the Moon's gravity and the Sun's gravity & electromagnetic activity there is absolutely NO force given off by any other celestial body that effects us here on earth. *If* there was some unkown force, astrology theoretically could have predicted the existance of, say, extrasolar planets, or large transneptunian objects, namely Eris?

 

[tinkerbell]

Hi

They are not unrelated sources, they are off the shelf sources...there is a big difference. Online stuff is just done by a computer, it takes say Venue sextile Mars and says, something along the lines of you are charming and aserive about your love need - however if the same aspect also has a Pluto square going to Mars - it really changes the impact on Venus, most computes can only cope with linerar interpreation, not interelatedness.

With MBTI everyone gets 1/16 profiles, astrology tries to personalise it a huge bit more. Someone born 10 days after you will have some things in common but a lot of differences too.

As for forces of the planet - you state what is currently know, but I doubt we know all that much about it as yet.... will we ever - possibly, in time, but probably not in either of our lifetimes.

Astrology also uses a whole lot o astraiod and outter planets, but they have less impact than the main ones used. We are of course missing 2 planets, the ruler of virgo and the ruler of Taurus (which have Mercury and Venus as co rulers with Gemini and Libra - will that chage? maybe in time).

Astrology may well be provable in time, in the say way as in the future we may be able to prove the meridians in our bodies exsist (the ones accupuncture uses to heal). Accupuncture works under blind testing, works on animals etc etc... Because astrology tries to personalise too much it has not really been tested in a way that is repeatable and blind testable. I'm itching to do some work with a telecoms company and see if I can predict high volume users, and when there will be peaks and troughs in the service... technically it's using very big picture astrology rather uneque per person, in the same way a segmentation is used for direct mail etc....

Lis

 

[Willfrey]

Hi

They are not unrelated sources, they are off the shelf sources...there is a big difference. Online stuff is just done by a computer, it takes say Venue sextile Mars and says, something along the lines of you are charming and aserive about your love need - however if the same aspect also has a Pluto square going to Mars - it really changes the impact on Venus, most computes can only cope with linerar interpreation, not interelatedness.

Yes the are all unrelated. The only thing Mars has in common with Pluto is that it is a ball of material in our solar system. There is nothing mysterious about them. Neither have any measurable effect to us on earth.

With MBTI everyone gets 1/16 profiles, astrology tries to personalise it a huge bit more. Someone born 10 days after you will have some things in common but a lot of differences too.

Are you kidding me? Some things in common but a lot of differences? That is true for absolutely every human being that is or has walked on this earth.

As for forces of the planet - you state what is currently know, but I doubt we know all that much about it as yet.... will we ever - possibly, in time, but probably not in either of our lifetimes.

So for any points I make that you cannot explain you chock it up to the great unknown. Instead of understanding that the forces of physics clearly show planets have no influence on our lives you prop astrology up by saying there are forces we'll never discover. To me its the equivalent of a toddler plugging his ears, shutting his eyes and going singing "LA LA LA" in the face of reason.

Astrology also uses a whole lot o astraiod and outter planets, but they have less impact than the main ones used. We are of course missing 2 planets, the ruler of virgo and the ruler of Taurus (which have Mercury and Venus as co rulers with Gemini and Libra - will that chage? maybe in time).

Good to know, considering there are well over a billion asteroids in our solar system greater than a hundred meters in diameter. There could be potentially hundreds that have achieved hydrostatic equilibrium (spherical) beyond Neptune's orbit. I'm sure every one of these bodies will be represented somehow in astrology, right?

Astrology may well be provable in time, in the say way as in the future we may be able to prove the meridians in our bodies exsist (the ones accupuncture uses to heal). Accupuncture works under blind testing, works on animals etc etc... Because astrology tries to personalise too much it has not really been tested in a way that is repeatable and blind testable. I'm itching to do some work with a telecoms company and see if I can predict high volume users, and when there will be peaks and troughs in the service... technically it's using very big picture astrology rather uneque per person, in the same way a segmentation is used for direct mail etc....

Lis

Meridians? Acupuncture? Anything else you wish to add, tinkerbell? Ley lines? UFO's? Sasquatch?

 

[PeaceBaby]

I agree with tinkerbell that the online free "teaser" tests are not a good measure of charting as a whole - they are intended for entertainment (and a convenient way to encourage you to schill out extra $$ for the detailed version!)

Does anyone know of a controlled study where a renowned astrologer has done charting and then compared it to personality profiles for those individuals?

 

[Willfrey]

I agree with tinkerbell that the online free "teaser" tests are not a good measure of charting as a whole - they are intended for entertainment (and a convenient way to encourage you to schill out extra $$ for the detailed version!)

Does anyone know of a controlled study where a renowned astrologer has done charting and then compared it to personality profiles for those individuals?

PeaceBaby, if a known astrologer conducted a study to prove/disprove the correlation between planetary bodies and personalities/events it'd most certainly come back in favor of astrology. Astrologers make money off astrology, why on earth would they try to discredit the very thing that gives them a paycheck?

A better option is to look at studies conducted by colleges which aren't influenced money/personal belief. Unsurprisingly astrology doesn't hold up too well, there have been innumerous studies everywhere and you don't have to look too far to find them.

 

[ptgatsby]

Does anyone know of a controlled study where a renowned astrologer has done charting and then compared it to personality profiles for those individuals?

There are lots - google scholar.

The test to note are the ones where the astrologists are given the right/wrong information, produce a result for the person, who then judges its accuracy. If you look into it, you'll find that the degree of belief in astrology defines how accurate we find it to be... that is, those that believe manage to find reports done on other people's birthdays accurate, etc.

The problem with the study you mention is that there is rarely any falsifiable information given by the astrologer to which you can test the person with. Not surprisingly, either, people tend to identify with positive comments a lot, regardless of how true they are.

edit: One thing I should mention is that I'm against astrology as a basis for understanding. I find it a lot more useful and helpful than religion is, strangely enough, as it tends to give people a more open identity.

 

[PeaceBaby]

PeaceBaby, if a known astrologer conducted a study to prove/disprove the correlation between planetary bodies and personalities/events it'd most certainly come back in favor of astrology.

LOL, I'm not suggesting it be moderated by the astrologer, it would need to be a double-blind study, much like controlled trials are conducted. Perhaps charting is done, then MBTI, and a comparison done between the two. Results are revealed to the participants (without knowledge of which is which), hard-boiled to statements that they either agree or disagree with.

Anyhoo, a few random thoughts tossed in the ring.

There are lots - google scholar ... If you look into it, you'll find that the degree of belief in astrology defines how accurate we find it to be...

And, ugh, I don't want to sift through 57000 results in google - if there have been studies conducted like the one proposed above, I would enjoy a direct link. I am not so interested in the topic to sift through all that ... LOL! Thanks though!

And I agree that people find if the description fits, they believe - regardless of origin - astrology or MBTI or whatever.

 

[tinkerbell]

Neither have any measurable effect to us on earth.

Instead of understanding that the forces of physics clearly show planets have no influence on our lives you prop astrology up by saying there are forces we'll never discover.

*****To me its the equivalent of a toddler plugging his ears, shutting his eyes and going singing "LA LA LA" in the face of reason.

Meridians? Acupuncture? Anything else you wish to add, tinkerbell? Ley lines? UFO's? Sasquatch?

LOL you really are scraping the barel, are you really saying that humanity can measure everything? that there will be no advances in science EVER, is it not possible that we simply havne't discovered the method to measure subtle impacts? As for me sticking my fingers in my ears, it's nto me making SWEEPING generalisations based on the current days limited abilities - it you that is doing that....

The accupuncture things is simply saying the alought science CAN measure impact of accupuncture it can't say WHY it works. No shit!

It makes me laugh to see people try and claim because it's not measurable it doesn't exisits, personaly I'm of the point of view, if we can't measure things it's because we've not discovered the ruler big enough to do the job, not that something nessesarily doesn't exist.

Lets face it, the people who said the world was flat were right... were they not? after all the were living in a world where no one could PROVE the world wasn't flat, therefore LA LA LA it's Flat - RIGHT?

Very amusing, knock yourself out, you are very funny,

Lis

 

[tinkerbell]

Michel Gauquelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do Keep in mind Gauquelin was pre computers. I beleive we are now in a uneque time to do more mass market research with substantial sample sizes amd test basic premises like never before.

Gauquelin, it is worth noting, was a statistician first and an astrologer second. He came to this experiment a skeptic and left with evidence. Yes it was challenged, but many beleive the challenges were not valid.

Its interesting to me as an astrologer, that he find the power of the planet and not of the sign. I have found that in reading too. Planet had impact, the sign is the window dressing, altough it does help to colour the interpretation. He also found evidence of houses.... anothr thing my own experience has found. I'd order it like this

Planets
Angles
Houses
Aspects
Signs

Although I'm lazy about aspects, I know that if I did more work on this it may raise the impact somewhat.

Enjoy picking apart...
Lis