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  1. #61
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    To me, most of the competitive late game zerg vs human come down to science vessels. Zerg has no real defense against a late game (assuming not resource starved) human, except to plow through. A combination of late game mobs can do it (Ultras/Defilers, notably), but it's rare that humans will give them the time to build up - tanks will start creeping forward, covered with science vessels... if human switches def to off at the right times, zerg expansions are more or less impossible and are quickly eliminated. You can almost see the entire game shift around a single science vessel.

    /me had fun watching the SC games in Korea. I should of been born there
    Plague wreaks havoc against massed Science Vessels, which tend to be clumped together for ease of use. Furthermore, a single Irradiate doesn't really do all that much damage, unless you get a stack of mutas. If your getting Science Vessels, chances are good the Zerg is at Defilers/Ultralisks, if not now, very soon. Plus, the Zerg army is way more mobile than the Terran blob, especially with Nydus Canals, that make defending expansions easy. Well placed Dark Swarms force the Terran player to retreat or be slaughtered by the swarm. The catch of course is that Defilers are really slow and weak, and good prey to Irradiate. However, Science Vessels are really vulnerable also. When they go in to Irradiate they're exposing themselves to Hydras, Plauge, and especially Scourge. Things get especially bad for Terran if Zerg can get Guardians and keeps em spread enough so that Irradiate doesn't massacre the whole group.

    Really though, StarCraft is so well balanced that any matchup is a coin toss assuming equally skilled players.

    Anyway, my highlight of the year was seeing Jaedong demolish Flash in the GOM finals.

  2. #62
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Plague wreaks havoc against massed Science Vessels, which tend to be clumped together for ease of use. Furthermore, a single Irradiate doesn't really do all that much damage, unless you get a stack of mutas. If your getting Science Vessels, chances are good the Zerg is at Defilers/Ultralisks, if not now, very soon. Plus, the Zerg army is way more mobile than the Terran blob, especially with Nydus Canals, that make defending expansions easy. Well placed Dark Swarms force the Terran player to retreat or be slaughtered by the swarm. The catch of course is that Defilers are really slow and weak, and good prey to Irradiate. However, Science Vessels are really vulnerable also. When they go in to Irradiate they're exposing themselves to Hydras, Plauge, and especially Scourge. Things get especially bad for Terran if Zerg can get Guardians and keeps em spread enough so that Irradiate doesn't massacre the whole group.
    I think microcontrol over the sc and defilers is probably the defining component, and some of it will depend on terrain (flying vs ground). A good terran player should be advancing pretty consistently at this point - they have nothing to wait for anymore. The ground blob should be creeping with tanks, while the sci vessels act remove/see anything in the way, like defilers. Too often terran ends up reacting (mutas -> goliaths, hydras -> tanks), which leaves them vulnerable to differentiation in the zerg... This happens mid game a lot. Zerg either takes the advantage, or terrans manage to expand. No expansion, late game never really happens.

    Granted, if the terran player gets taken by surprise by even one defiler, the whole game can shift...

    It is a touch and go part of the game, though. The only part I disagree is that it is possible to defend expansions with zerg easily. Zerg don't entrench well against humans, once humans are in a position to move. Especially not with the stimmed "kill your base in seconds" drops being a threat. To break it, you have to risk defilers in open combat, difficult with even a couple of tanks or a pack or two of marines. That, and it's often all to possible to get tanks sieged up somewhere outside the base. Low cost, high siege value. Different than reaver drops, but still a back breaker.

    Zerg benefits from being pro-active in preventing the siege at their base - that is, they need to play a very good early and mid game, where they have the advantage. Zerg really is all about harassment and controlling the map before terran can. Once they lose that, they can recover, but I think they are coming from behind. At the late game, if they failed to do that, humans get to start controlling the board on their terms, be it harrassment (irridate overlords/cloaked wraiths), direct (rolling waves of tanks) or various drops...

    Really though, StarCraft is so well balanced that any matchup is a coin toss assuming equally skilled players.
    Yup, even this shows it. Both sides can work with what they have, and both really have to set themselves up. I mean, a zerg player with expansions can easily break human blockades, but when they are cash starved/defending against low-cost drops from human, it's difficult to get the right combination of things.

    So much comes down to setup and so forth - hence, why I think the game still tops out the strategy part in RTS!

  3. #63
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Why is no one speaking about Protoss? I loved em. Also, I hated playing zerg, mostly for one reason - cluster fuck screens.

  4. #64
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It is a touch and go part of the game, though. The only part I disagree is that it is possible to defend expansions with zerg easily. Zerg don't entrench well against humans, once humans are in a position to move. Especially not with the stimmed "kill your base in seconds" drops being a threat. To break it, you have to risk defilers in open combat, difficult with even a couple of tanks or a pack or two of marines. That, and it's often all to possible to get tanks sieged up somewhere outside the base. Low cost, high siege value. Different than reaver drops, but still a back breaker.

    Zerg benefits from being pro-active in preventing the siege at their base - that is, they need to play a very good early and mid game, where they have the advantage. Zerg really is all about harassment and controlling the map before terran can. Once they lose that, they can recover, but I think they are coming from behind. At the late game, if they failed to do that, humans get to start controlling the board on their terms, be it harrassment (irridate overlords/cloaked wraiths), direct (rolling waves of tanks) or various drops...
    Realize of course that I'm a Zerg player and my definition of defense is likely different than yours (as long as my stuff is still there, I'm defending it well, eh? Ignore the fact that the opponent may not have even attacked that area). I take to heart "the best defense is the best offense". Naturally, no one wants to defend in their base. All three races are good at defending really, just in their own way, with Zerg being proactive, preemptive strikes, hit and run, distraction tactics. Terran just wants to take their giant blob and steamroll over everything, while Zerg uses guerrilla tactics to delay and wear it down, and eventually open a hole in the defense where they can pour down waves and waves of units. So yeah, not disagreeing with you, just... stuff.

  5. #65
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I don't have too much to say about your question since ptgatsby said plenty of it.

    If you manage to find a unprepared or damadged terran you can win without too much problems with a help of defilers. Just to be clear.


    But there are some tricks left. Medics have restore ability so if you have 3medics under 3 numbers you can restore 15 plagued units. Also only a fool has a 5+ Science vessels togather.
    Also dark swarm does not work so good if you know one trick with tanks. Dark swarm works on a principle that shooter miiss it is target and hits ground infront of a target. But if you order tanks that they don't shoot at the first row dark swarm will not be that much useful. Plus there is defensive matrix to protect your first row.
    Or you can do something else. It is not hard to have 3 vultures around since they cost only 75 minerals. Zerg often throws dark swarm infront of you. So you can rush in and place spider mines. The zerg will not be able to destroy them with missle attacks and melee attackers will trigger them. So the best for the zerg is to call off the attack.


    But sice there isn't that much said about ghosts I will say something.

    I will share some tricks.

    People ususlly build only few of them. But they are cheap 25 minerals which is 3 times cheeper then hydralisk and 75 gas.

    People say that they have very small damage but that depends on what they are shooting at.
    10 grosts are very good in taking down zealots and DTs that are runing at your tanks. The can create quite large damadge to protoss plasma shields.
    Ghosts can assasinate HT and defilers very easy in opponent is not careful. They are good for shooting down the scourges and infested terrans.
    the are not even that bad against mutalisks if there is too much of them.
    Plus lockdown for mechanical units. Since they are cheap, have a big sight and they are invisible they are good scouts

    I said that my ghost can drive people insane.

    If you play 1vs1 and you play only with nukes you will probably lose.


    Once people scan that there is no ghosst they can deside to attack with something more expensive and machanical. But your ghosts can be hidden in bunkers and dropships.

    Not to mention below lift off buldings.


    You say that you can prevent nuking with too much trouble. Which is true if you use very primitive tactics.

    On many places there are lines of minerals and then there is a cliff behind them. You can target on the cliff so he/she will not be able to see the dot even of it is very close to workers.

    Or you can hide the gost below a dropship so they will need to destroy the dropship first.

    Also it would not hurt that you have a medic(or two) with the ghost for heeling. On the battle net no one uses the optical flair ability. But with this you can knock out detector what means that there is no one to detect the ghost. Or you can have a ghost or two extra so that they can lockdown threats. Also you can have a science vessel behind so that the enemy does not see it. But if situation gets critical you can always use defensive matrix and if needed another one.

    Usually protoss in late game buid a lot of pylons around important targets.
    But the things is that ghosts can hide between them and use them as protection from many protoss units. Plus you can have a few ghost so you can lockdown something in the process.

    When zerg attacks fortified terran base with a huge horde they will use dark swarm. but when attack starts target over a dark swarm. The first line of the horde will come in conntact with you so the middle part whill have no where to go since the end of the horde will still want to go to atteck.
    But the player can't change orders so fast to so many units. Which means that units can get stuck since they want to go to in different directions.
    With some luck you can kill large amount of units this way. Also the orange lo dark swarm cloud is not helping you to notice the dot.

    There in one more trick. When you target an air unit there is no dot!
    Feel free to check this one.


    Usually zerg has a large group of unprotected overlords around his workers. So you can drop a ghost somewhere behind and place a ghost below his/her overlords and place a dot on them. Since there is no dot you have a realisitic
    chances that you will blow up overlords and some workers.


    You can send a wraith in as a distraction but what you are actually doing is hidding a dot with you own wraith.


    You can even do something more sinister. If you have enough resources you can target a flat land for a nuclear strike. But you enemy will be sweating a lot since there is not dot and the clock is ticking. Make sure that about 50% of nukes are going is his/her direction (with a random schedule of course).
    Believe me after a few minutes of this their ability to think straight will drop for observable amount.
    Not to mention that while they search for the dot they will never find you can attack with cloaked wraiths somwhere or tenk drop without too much problems.


    I have watched my replys of 4vs4 games and everytime you lunch a nuke the other side stops complety in everything they are doing to search for that dot.
    So if you manage to build 3 silos you can totally distrupt all of their plans and tactics.


    This is it.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    My best friend, who is an ENTP, is completely addicted to Starcraft. He tells me that he needs to get home because there are atleast a hundred Korean kids that are waiting to be pwned by him.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  7. #67
    Senior Member blanclait's Avatar
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    i rarely found nuke effective against a proper zerg player.

    Usually you get overlord scouts patrolling the area, and if one or two wraiths become active, random scourages starts patrolling, whichever, doesn't lead to good end for surprise drop. And if zerg actually sees silo getting built, air defence becomes worse.

    only map i can see this working properly are island maps with wraiths/valkyries to drive away overlords and mutalisks.


    But at this point still,
    silo + ghost + nuke (time) + (loss of scan) + (ghost upgrades) eats like 600 gas. and 500 minerals

    considering terran late game, gas is always short, i just found them too overpriced for its effect. not to mention you probably need to have at LEAST 3 CC at this point. having 1 scan at late game, is death.

    instead of that, i would buy 7 marines 2 medics and vessel. Which not only has greater versatility but less risk. and you save on gas.


    vs a protoss isn't bad.


    and are you sure about the air unit thing? b/c nukes never target a unit. It's like psionic storm, it will hit the terrain where the unit was standing. even if the unit moves. i think its either a. glitch or b. mistake on your part. Or this would be abused beyond words.

  8. #68
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I've played Warcraft 1&2 and Starcraft. They are fun games, but I prefer turn-based strategy more like Civilization or Heroes of M&M. What I play the most of are turn-based tactics games: Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea, Fire Emblem, Gladius, Advance Wars, etc... including several sequals for most of those series.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  9. #69
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Yeah, I sorta forgot about this thread, so apologies for the late reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I don't have too much to say about your question since ptgatsby said plenty of it.

    If you manage to find a unprepared or damadged terran you can win without too much problems with a help of defilers. Just to be clear.


    But there are some tricks left. Medics have restore ability so if you have 3medics under 3 numbers you can restore 15 plagued units. Also only a fool has a 5+ Science vessels togather.
    And yet, many professional Korean players do exactly that. Yes, it's generally not advisable to stack your troops, especially casters, but they do it for ease of use. It's easier to control them if their in a group, and considering how much gymnastics they do with them, to even try with two groups is insane. Same principle works for mutalisk stacking (well, not quite, due to the focus fire aspect). Rarely do you see them microing two groups of mutas simultaneously. They generally use only one group at a time and rotate as they get damaged. To use two would be way too hard, unless you're willing to sacrifice a lot of effectiveness.

    Also dark swarm does not work so good if you know one trick with tanks. Dark swarm works on a principle that shooter miiss it is target and hits ground infront of a target. But if you order tanks that they don't shoot at the first row dark swarm will not be that much useful. Plus there is defensive matrix to protect your first row.
    What? Not sure what exactly your saying here. Are you saying, if I have a formation like this:
    X/Y = random unit

    XY
    XY
    XY
    XY

    all under dark swarm, then if you target the Xs, it'll hit the Ys? Because that's just blatantly false. Anything under the swarm is immune to direct ranged fire (but not splash).

    Or you can do something else. It is not hard to have 3 vultures around since they cost only 75 minerals. Zerg often throws dark swarm infront of you. So you can rush in and place spider mines. The zerg will not be able to destroy them with missle attacks and melee attackers will trigger them. So the best for the zerg is to call off the attack.
    That's true. Ideally Zerg can pick off the vultures before they do that, but sometimes they can't and they'll be forced into a temporary retreat. Of course, if you have Lurkers, then there's a good chance the mines will be destroyed in the cross fire before they have a chance to blow up.

    But sice there isn't that much said about ghosts I will say something.

    I will share some tricks.

    People ususlly build only few of them. But they are cheap 25 minerals which is 3 times cheeper then hydralisk and 75 gas.

    People say that they have very small damage but that depends on what they are shooting at.
    10 grosts are very good in taking down zealots and DTs that are runing at your tanks. The can create quite large damadge to protoss plasma shields.
    Ghosts can assasinate HT and defilers very easy in opponent is not careful. They are good for shooting down the scourges and infested terrans.
    the are not even that bad against mutalisks if there is too much of them.
    Plus lockdown for mechanical units. Since they are cheap, have a big sight and they are invisible they are good scouts

    I said that my ghost can drive people insane.

    If you play 1vs1 and you play only with nukes you will probably lose.


    Once people scan that there is no ghosst they can deside to attack with something more expensive and machanical. But your ghosts can be hidden in bunkers and dropships.

    Not to mention below lift off buldings.
    Yeah, that's all true. They are kinda vulnerable though, but cheap as you said.

    You say that you can prevent nuking with too much trouble. Which is true if you use very primitive tactics.

    On many places there are lines of minerals and then there is a cliff behind them. You can target on the cliff so he/she will not be able to see the dot even of it is very close to workers.

    Or you can hide the gost below a dropship so they will need to destroy the dropship first.

    Also it would not hurt that you have a medic(or two) with the ghost for heeling. On the battle net no one uses the optical flair ability. But with this you can knock out detector what means that there is no one to detect the ghost. Or you can have a ghost or two extra so that they can lockdown threats. Also you can have a science vessel behind so that the enemy does not see it. But if situation gets critical you can always use defensive matrix and if needed another one.
    Hah, funny. Especially as Zerg, I have overlords practically everywhere all around my bases. I don't even need to see the dot, as I can see the ghost itself, and it probably died to a sunken that I put next to the cliff for the express purpose of preventing drops. As Protoss and Terran, I make sure to have cannons/turrets around my base to prevent this kind of stuff. And if your using lockdown, then that just makes it even easier to find your nuker, and bring in some of the random troops that I'm constantly making in my base to kill it.

    Usually protoss in late game buid a lot of pylons around important targets.
    But the things is that ghosts can hide between them and use them as protection from many protoss units. Plus you can have a few ghost so you can lockdown something in the process.
    I suppose that would be true, except that if you can manage to get a unit unharmed into their base that late into the game, then you've probably already won the battle.

    When zerg attacks fortified terran base with a huge horde they will use dark swarm. but when attack starts target over a dark swarm. The first line of the horde will come in conntact with you so the middle part whill have no where to go since the end of the horde will still want to go to atteck.
    But the player can't change orders so fast to so many units. Which means that units can get stuck since they want to go to in different directions.
    With some luck you can kill large amount of units this way. Also the orange lo dark swarm cloud is not helping you to notice the dot.
    I'm really not sure at all what your trying to say here. It's pretty easy to lay down multiple dark swarms to cover the majority of your army. Plus generally, a competent Zerg player will attack from many angles, and his army will not clog up because of that. As for nukes, it's likely that defensive nuking is the best use of them, but in this case, still not very good. The Zerg army is fast enough that it can fully retreat out of range of a nuke in just a few seconds. And if your nuking the dark swarm, then you'd be nuking your own troops, as Zerg will put the swarm over your troops to protect his melee units. All assuming the Ghost isn't accidentally caught in lurker or mutalisk crossfire, and if I don't spot it with the overlord that I'm sure to bring along.

    There in one more trick. When you target an air unit there is no dot!
    Feel free to check this one.
    Not true. There is a dot, it's just hidden below the air unit. If you move the unit, then the dot is revealed.

    Usually zerg has a large group of unprotected overlords around his workers. So you can drop a ghost somewhere behind and place a ghost below his/her overlords and place a dot on them. Since there is no dot you have a realisitic
    chances that you will blow up overlords and some workers.


    You can send a wraith in as a distraction but what you are actually doing is hidding a dot with you own wraith.
    I'm not sure what caliber of opponents your facing, but any competent player will have defenses set up at his mineral line. Your ghost will easily be killed by the sunkens that I'm sure to have. And if I don't have defenses, why even bother nuking, when you could do much more damage with a group of MnMs, or vultures, or wraiths, or practically anything.

    You can even do something more sinister. If you have enough resources you can target a flat land for a nuclear strike. But you enemy will be sweating a lot since there is not dot and the clock is ticking. Make sure that about 50% of nukes are going is his/her direction (with a random schedule of course).
    Believe me after a few minutes of this their ability to think straight will drop for observable amount.
    Not to mention that while they search for the dot they will never find you can attack with cloaked wraiths somwhere or tenk drop without too much problems.


    I have watched my replys of 4vs4 games and everytime you lunch a nuke the other side stops complety in everything they are doing to search for that dot.
    So if you manage to build 3 silos you can totally distrupt all of their plans and tactics.


    This is it.
    That would be insanely expensive though. Plus again, any competent player will have enough defenses at his base that he has to do no more than a cursory examination, then move on his way. And with all the money your spending on nukes that won't do anything, he will likely have a massive econ advantage over you, and be able to easily outproduce you.

    On a related note, I managed to fix my StarCraft. I can play again, weee!
    Last edited by Costrin; 01-27-2009 at 01:44 AM. Reason: clarification

  10. #70
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    starcraft teach you economics.
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