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  1. #31
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ99 View Post
    You have a point i think. I may be pushing what i see as the way i am to the more extreme ends but i think i do that to try and make him see how i think. So the question is how to make him understand me and the way i am better without pushing my character to the extremes.

    The thing about being adult is a problem though. I already talk to him like an adult as being a "kid" doesn't really suit me. But he talk tos me in a very "subordinate" way (is that the term?). He hates it when i try talk to him as if i am any other adult and seems to try and put on an image of himself as the "parent", taking criticism very badly.

    Thank You that is helpful though.
    I'm glad you picked up that point out of all the rest, because I think that's what's really going on: you trying to be heard and respected rather than ignored. I would suggest you continue to talk to your dad with a respectful, understanding rather than subordinate (and yes, that is the right word), but dignified and adult-like tone. Sometimes parents don't really know how to talk to their kids like adults. It's a skill that takes trust and patience. By demonstrating your own maturity in the way you talk and deal with his requests, I think you will naturally begin to earn that trust and build a new type of communication style that may seem either frightening or simply foreign to your dad right now. Keep at it, it sounds very promising.

  2. #32
    HUZZAH! Bougal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ99 View Post
    When did i say he hit me?

    And its more than just dishes that was just a clear example of how he doesn't like my logic.
    Its many things, the main one being religion - he is a devout roman catholic whereas i'm an atheistic agnostic. He hates it hen i try to get him to justify his religion and won't admit that you can't. And when i disagree with him because of religion and its lack of logic he takes it very personaly.

    Tbh i don't think just taking his crap will help and i don't want to "cut the string". I'm looking for some advice to restructure the relationship so we understand each other. Personally i think i have an OK understanding of him but he has no understanding of me which is part of the problem so really i want advice as to how to help him understand me better.
    I know he doesn't hit you, I was saying that he doesn't hit you. My point was that it isn't a physically abusive relationship, and if it were, I would advise that you leave it, but it's not, so I wouldn't "cut the string" as the other person advises. And I agree that the differences in communication styles is the root of a lot of frustrations, but if you shut your mouth he will get off of your case. The more you frustrate hime, the more he will attack. He will never understand you, just like my mother will never understand me.


    Ne > Ni > Ti > Fi > Te> Fe > Se > Si

  3. #33
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    My father's an ESTJ. First off, without focusing on functions, let's keep-it-simple-stupid method means, we had 2 letters in common. E & T. Didn't help.

    I always focused on his 'negatives' - and these were what I thought about him: imaginationless-logic, cannot bow down to another if they justify their position (esp. one in an 'inferior' position such as their child), always finding 'fault', linear, rigid/stubborn, detail-oriented, too organized (and projecting that on others), abrasive/aggressive as his modus operandi, fatalistic/cynical ..etc..etc.

    A lot of it had to do with my protective side coming out in regards to my mother (INFP). Where she couldn't challenge him with logic (and he countered by pointing out her irrationality), I would see it as my personal challenge to point out *his* flawed logic (I'm also a T - a pretty high scoring one). And, him going for her F also pissed me off, playing to her feelings. And there was tension. His SJ with my NP. The biggest issue was, unlike my mom, he couldn't play to my F, and, we would end up having all-out screw-feelings fight. Ugly, ugly, ugly. With my mom the only one in tears, begging us to stop.

    And, then, I grew up, and found that it was equally as irrational to challenge him at every turn, just to show him how it felt to be on the receiving end. To DEMAND to be heard. Because...

    I myself have never done well with being *told*/*demanded to do something. The last time I asked for permission for ANYTHING was when I was 16. I used to have this hair-trigger to being told what to do. Even, 'take out the garbage' had me seeing red. If told, simply because I was told, I would not do so. My motto was: ask, request, but, do not EVER, EVER, *tell* *me* what to do.

    And.....it has come now to the point where he doesn't even rise to the challenge, where I see that he consciously backs down if he says something, he's not 'afraid' of me per se, but, he's now afraid of confrontation with me. And, it saddens me greatly. Because, he isn't the mean dictator that I've always thought him to be.

    I have learned to see what I previously thought as flaws, to *also* have their benefits.

    imaginationless-logic = real-world practicality
    cannot bow down = taught me what its like to challenge 'the best', cuz I had to bring my A game (and hone my logic)
    linear = always can account for all the steps, A to Z
    always finding fault/cynical/fatalistic = while I am very optimistic, it gave me a more rounded outlook - 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst'
    rigid/stubborn = only when he felt threatened, he is suprisingly more open about a lot of issues than my mom because he can be more objective
    too organized = important documents can be easily found, things that are broken are fixed as soon as it is found out to be broken, reliable, committed
    abrasive/aggressive = meh, I am the same

    Looking now from the outside in (it has been quite a few years that I've lived away from home), I now have the greatest respect from him. He's one of the most honourable man I know.

    Yes, he challenges my INFP mom, but, she's not without fault (she instigates by holding on to irrational "I am the victim, and he's mean" - and there's a bit of manipulation there), but, now I realize the number of times he has done things for her (not grand romantic gestures, but, practical-minded) without even wanting recognition. My car is always fixed and running (no mechanic fairy), and we don't even know because he's up at the break of dawn, *needing* to be useful, so always doing *something*, and we don't see as we're still in the land of nod. He has had the same calculator for over 30 years (old as fuck, but it still works), and same with his clothes. I couldn't believe the simple, fumbling joy on his face when I forcefully bought him a new jacket this winter.
    Him before shopping [an activity he loathes]: this is ridiculous, I already have a jacket, it keeps me warm, so it works just fine, I don't understand why you waste money like this, grumble, grumble.
    Me: la la la, you're getting the jacket! [BOUGHT!]
    Dad comes home from work next day: Takes off jacket, makes sure everything is out of pockets, carefully zips up pockets, assesses jacket, finds a speck (goes immediately to clean off speck), rummages around house to find a "sturdy" hanger befitting of his *precious* *new* jacket. Hangs it up, then finally sits to rest for the day.
    2 days later, my next door neighbour: say, where is the store you got your dad's jacket from? I want to get one too as he said it was a great deal and he's never had a warmer jacket.



    I could go on with personal anecdotes, but, the real message is: take a deep breath, acknowledge that there's vast differences between the two of you, acknowledge that as every strength is a weakness on its flip side, so is every 'weakness'/fault you see in him a strength, find examples of what you admire about him, give yourself time and space apart to appreciate not only him, but the relationship you two have, and, don't forget that time doesn't stop for anyone. Learn to fight the dark instinctual nature he seems to inadvertantly rise within you, and you will see, that it is not about changing you (nor changing him), but, changing the dynamics of the relationship. Every word he says is not a shrouded challenge. Don't focus on you, or him. But, the relationship. Because you may not always get that time back. And, finally, allow the relationship to grow. It will come.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bougal View Post
    I know he doesn't hit you, I was saying that he doesn't hit you. My point was that it isn't a physically abusive relationship, and if it were, I would advise that you leave it, but it's not, so I wouldn't "cut the string" as the other person advises. And I agree that the differences in communication styles is the root of a lot of frustrations, but if you shut your mouth he will get off of your case. The more you frustrate hime, the more he will attack. He will never understand you, just like my mother will never understand me.
    You seem to think that an abusive relationship is only one which constitutes beating the living shit out of someone.

  5. #35
    Senior Member IEE623's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I have learned to see what I previously thought as flaws, to *also* have their benefits.

    Looking now from the outside in (it has been quite a few years that I've lived away from home), I now have the greatest respect from him. He's one of the most honourable man I know.
    Right on with Socionics Benefit relation between ESTj (benefactor) and ENTp (beneficiary)

    "The Beneficiary can see the weakness of the Benefactor"
    "The Beneficiary can be impressed and delighted by their partner's behaviour, manners, thoughts [...]"

    And benefactor of ESTj is ESFP Try to think in term of ESFP and guess what ESFP might react to your father's behaviors.
    "Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters"

  6. #36
    HUZZAH! Bougal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    You seem to think that an abusive relationship is only one which constitutes beating the living shit out of someone.
    No, not at all. I know that psychological abuse can be the worst of all, but I am not suffering from any sort of a case of it. I think that moving out would be a worse reality than he is in now, and it is that same for me.

    I can't afford to move out. I would need to quit school and work full time to pay for an apartment. I would even be able afford furniture or food. My dreams would go out the window.

    You are speaking in absolutes. I am fine; you don't need to look out for me. I'm not abused, I'm just misunderstood- - who isn't. If I was in a bad situation I would have enough of a spine to leave. Give me some credit.


    Ne > Ni > Ti > Fi > Te> Fe > Se > Si

  7. #37
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bougal View Post
    I know he doesn't hit you, I was saying that he doesn't hit you. My point was that it isn't a physically abusive relationship, and if it were, I would advise that you leave it, but it's not, so I wouldn't "cut the string" as the other person advises. And I agree that the differences in communication styles is the root of a lot of frustrations, but if you shut your mouth he will get off of your case. The more you frustrate hime, the more he will attack. He will never understand you, just like my mother will never understand me.
    Then why do you bother with your mum then?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Hendo Barbarosa's Avatar
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    maybe it's more important to have a parent who loves you and completely doesn't understand, rather than the inverse?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bougal View Post
    No, not at all. I know that psychological abuse can be the worst of all, but I am not suffering from any sort of a case of it. I think that moving out would be a worse reality than he is in now, and it is that same for me.

    I can't afford to move out. I would need to quit school and work full time to pay for an apartment. I would even be able afford furniture or food. My dreams would go out the window.

    You are speaking in absolutes. I am fine; you don't need to look out for me. I'm not abused, I'm just misunderstood- - who isn't. If I was in a bad situation I would have enough of a spine to leave. Give me some credit.
    He didn't mention any financial problems. Like you, I project my current situation on him and base it on the position where finance isn't really a big issue, I've had part time jobs for pretty much all of my life since puberty and I do better, than what I need to do to get a stipendium in my school. I have all the capabilities of taking care of myself and I do.

    I'm speaking mostly in absolutes because that's how I view life, with the exception of people. A question like, "are you abused?" has only a y/n answer in my mind. And no, I never really had bigger problems with my family, than being 5mins or so late to something from sleeping in.

  10. #40
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Don't do what I did and rebel. My dad got remarried to an extremely unhealthy ESTJ. The last thing to do is to try and challenge anything they tell you to do, they will get mad and simply think you are wanting to defy them. This happened a lot when I asked "why" to a lot of the things she would tell me to do. She could never explain why, NEVER did she explain why she wanted me to do all the useless things she wanted me to do. The only thing she would say is "because I said so" and "because I'm your step mom." Like she had some natural authority over me, which I am completely opposed to (morally and logically).

    Some things I realized I had to do was to just comply with them. No arguing. When I was finished with my task I would run away as fast as I could and retreat in my room or with a friend for as long as possible. If you don't do this your life will be made a living hell, since SJ parents are nightmares most of the time for an intuitive person to deal with, especially NP people.

    Since I opposed her so much I got kicked out of the house because I wouldn't comply with her. My dad let me live in one of their rental houses (family business) and I've been the happiest person I've ever been. The way I went about doing this is I guilt tripped her and said she was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life, and that she made me want to die.

    The thing most people with SJ parents don't realize is that they want their children to be successful and stay out of trouble, and that they really do care. This will be shown when you are on your own.

    Some real advice would be to stay out of your house as much as possible. When I did this I actually felt good about myself. When I had to deal with my step mom I would typically want to kill myself (literally, she even forced me on anti depressants because she suspected I was suicidal).
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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