User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 163

  1. #81
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Regarding T and F as it relates to NTs and NFs, what do you think about this conjecture:

    NFs are more easily offended.

    NTs are more stubborn.

    I kind of like the advice/criticism commentary. But I don't think NTs are closed to advice per se. They are more likely to receive criticism the same way as they do advice. An NT will learn from either if it makes it past any potential stubborn opposition. But an NT won't quickly take offense from criticism, they'll just reject it.

    Where NFs, when presented with advice that comes in, shall we say, an attractive package are more likely than NTs to consider that advice. Criticism (which can really be called advice in a stinky package) may be extremely constructive for an NF, but the odor of the package will greatly minimize an NFs ability to receive it.

    Can I keep you around as an NT-translator?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #82
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    When push comes to shove, an overall highly intelligent person, at least in my books, is someone who understands a lot of things well, which includes understanding their own feelings as well as the feelings of others.

    Thoughts, oftentimes, evoke feelings and feelings, oftentimes, evoke thoughts. To be honest, I cannot imagine any other way of processing experience.

    I can say this though, not all thoughts evoke or stem from feelings, whereas *all* feelings stem from and evoke thoughts.
    I am curious

    What do you(or any other F) thinks about process

    thoughts-->thoughts-->thoughts-->thoughts

    In my case this process can go for hours without creating emotional reactions which appear when I am done with thinking/analysing.
    They are probably just a shadow of yours and mostly we are talking about
    "It is good, no it is not good"

  3. #83
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Incidentally, you know there's two kinds of logic, right? Deductive and Inductive. Deductive logic--as a logic system--is rock solid: if Y is deduced from X, then when X is true, Y definitely is true too. Inductive logic--as a logical system--is weasly: if X is true, then Y is very likely true too.

    My naive understanding of MBTI stuff correlates Ti with Deductive logic and Te with Inductive. Ni, as far as I understand, doesn't have any kind of logical properties at all. It's all just, gee whiz, wow, check out the wonderful strands of stuff that float of this thing... It's just a mass of could be's, might be's, possibilitiez. That mass is totally undifferentiated without the imposition of some order--in the INJ cases, Te or Fe.
    No no no no no. Both forms of Thinking are entirely deductive. Anything that can be labeled inductive logic (at least the inductive leap itself) is Intuition. The thing with inductive logic is that the conclusion does not follow from the premises. This is exactly the type of thing that Intuition does -- make educated guesses.

    For INTJs Ni goes "wow, what a blast" and Te says, "Yeah, and it gets refined like so," and then Fi chimes in with "I concur, and you better do it too, :sob:"

    For INFJs, Ni goes "wow", Fe goes, "Yeah, and it gets refined like so", and then Ti chimes in with... what? A categorisation of the Fe result into true's and false's?

    But none of it is so simple and discrete. Ni doesn't work on it's own, the judgment function is always there differentiating immediately, and guiding Ni attention, and the third function is always there too sitting in the background guiding too. It's all a mix. It's all a constant processing activity. It's all "thinking." How do you tell the difference between Fe reflection on a topic with a Ti guiding hand, and a Ti focus on categories and details? (Or, hell, you hear about these people with different function orders--maybe, Evan, you're one of those. What's a good way of finding out?)
    A good way of finding out is counting the number of times you think "x is true/false" and counting the number of times you think "x is good/bad" and comparing the two to each other over some amount of time. It's essentially impossible to do this way, but you can approximate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    INXJs take in information and produce rich theories of what it all means. They produce those theories for the purpose of perhaps one day doing something. Only they don't so often do something as they do go over the theory a few more times. If pressed, they'll produce advice. (We're not E's, our action is more often to advise than to do, to orchestrate rather than to enact...).

    Yes or No?

    INFJ focus is inside the people around them (those people's hearts and souls and the origin of their deeds.) INTJ focus is outside the people around them (those people's computers, their chairs, their military maneuvers).
    This is way oversimplified, which, again, is the point the OP was making. It's true that INFJs focus more on tangible evidence to make their good/bad distinctions, which probably directs their attention towards other people more. But it's not so cut and dried.

    And there is a fine and fabulous distinction to be made between thinking and feeling. I don't know what it is, but there is one. Something like feeling is affective and thinking is... deductive?
    No. Both Thinking and Feeling are entirely deductive. This is the confusion everyone is getting into. Feeling is NOT emotional. Feeling LABELS emotional responses, but it's not emotional. It's a deductive judgment. Emotions fall in the realm of perceiving functions, as perceiving functions span all of unconscious/subconscious cognition.

    I have no idea if you're into computer science, but I'm gonna use a computer science metaphor. Both Feeling and Thinking are incredibly simple functions -- they simply take in some inputs/arguments/premises and parse that data with a few If/Then statements. Thinking outputs true/false, while Feeling outputs good/bad.

  4. #84
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Regarding T and F as it relates to NTs and NFs, what do you think about this conjecture:

    NFs are more easily offended.

    NTs are more stubborn.

    I kind of like the advice/criticism commentary. But I don't think NTs are closed to advice per se. They are more likely to receive criticism the same way as they do advice. An NT will learn from either if it makes it past any potential stubborn opposition. But an NT won't quickly take offense from criticism, they'll just reject it.

    Where NFs, when presented with advice that comes in, shall we say, an attractive package are more likely than NTs to consider that advice. Criticism (which can really be called advice in a stinky package) may be extremely constructive for an NF, but the odor of the package will greatly minimize an NFs ability to receive it.
    Hm, I think this might be true on average, but definitely not for all individual cases. I know an INTJ who gets offended much more easily than I do, like when people don't carry out his vision the way he wants them to . I very rarely get offended (way moreso on the forum because I have no tone of voice/body language to use to pick up on sarcasm), but when I do, it's more of an appropriate/inappropriate distinction.

    I think Fe users in general are much more concerned with appropriateness/inappropriateness whereas Fi users tend to be concerned with a more idealized kind of "good" and "bad". For me personally, I only get offended if someone deliberately makes anyone else uncomfortable with no tangible gain. Only when I deem the inappropriate outburst pointless do I take offense, I'm not necessarily against breaking social convention. But when the only reason is to get a high-five or whatever from your friends, and you cause someone else some kind of distress, I do get angry.

    Also, I'm more stubborn than most NTs Although NTJs can out-stubborn me a lot of the time..

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am curious

    What do you(or any other F) thinks about process

    thoughts-->thoughts-->thoughts-->thoughts

    In my case this process can go for hours without creating emotional reactions which appear when I am done with thinking/analysing.
    They are probably just a shadow of yours and mostly we are talking about
    "It is good, no it is not good"
    I think you're exaggerating.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Also, I'm more stubborn than most NTs Although NTJs can out-stubborn me a lot of the time..
    I think NTPs are plenty stubborn, they are just less compelled to keep up an argument to prove a point. They're stubborn on the inside.

    I also think NTs are way more prone to make inductive leaps that they think are deductive conclusions than they realize (myself included). This became obvious to me on the NTs and God thread. Whether that is a product of Thinking or Feeling is a topic for this thread I suppose.

  6. #86
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    I think NTPs are plenty stubborn, they are just less compelled to keep up an argument to prove a point. They're stubborn on the inside.

    I also think NTs are way more prone to make inductive leaps that they think are deductive conclusions than they realize (myself included). This became obvious to me on the NTs and God thread. Whether that is a product of Thinking or Feeling is a topic for this thread I suppose.
    Inductive leaps are by definition in the realm of Intuition. Making inductive leaps without realizing is due to lack of judgment, mainly Thinking. So it seems unlikely that NTs would make this mistake more often on average than NFs, just because Thinking is essentially the only tool possible to make a deductive argument.

    Anyway, the more dominant the Intuition, the more inductive leaps one will take. Whether or not they will fill in the gaps with Thinking depends on the importance the user places on an exact step-by-step deduction.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    190

    Default

    I think Fe users in general are much more concerned with appropriateness/inappropriateness whereas Fi users tend to be concerned with a more idealized kind of "good" and "bad".
    Totally. My NF friends sometimes point out where I've inadvertently made people feel uncomfortable related to appropriateness/inappropriateness values. But I have a very strong sense of justice, and desire to treat people with dignity. And sometimes I feel my NF friends make compromises that undermine justice.

  8. #88
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,678

    Default

    I think you're exaggerating.
    This is the main reason why I ask. I got many reasponses like this in real life.
    And people that appear to be F all ways react like this.
    They say I am lying, that I am denying my feeling, that I don't know about what I am talking about ..... and stuff like this.

    When I am in my analising mode I only only motice flaws in logic,facts and numbers.
    When I am done I can start to thik about is that realy good or bad what is personal value.

    I am curious about this because

    1.you can't relate since you don't experiance this
    2.or we have differences in meanings of words?

    Or both.

  9. #89
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am curious about this because

    1.you can't relate since you don't experiance this
    2.or we have differences in meanings of words?

    Or both.
    I think 2. Also, Feeling is necessary to decide what to Think about. I'm not talking about emotion when I'm talking about Feeling, I'm talking about good/bad. Good/bad can even be something like, "this is interesting", or "this is boring". Feeling serves to direct Thinking.

    In regards to 1, I can totally relate to what I'm assuming you're talking about. I, too, can sit for hours and think about systems, how they are flawed, how they could be improved, etc. I also find myself out of touch with the way I feel about things -- I usually have to reason backwards to figure it out. Like, I'll look at my actions and find a pattern. Then I'll say to myself, "well, maybe I acted that way because I was feeling x" and I'll test out whether or not that makes sense. If not, I'll try Feeling y. Eventually, I can pick out a pretty accurate description of what I must have been Feeling, but it's certainly not a direct process.

  10. #90
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Totally. My NF friends sometimes point out where I've inadvertently made people feel uncomfortable related to appropriateness/inappropriateness values. But I have a very strong sense of justice, and desire to treat people with dignity. And sometimes I feel my NF friends make compromises that undermine justice.
    Heh, I feel like NFPs are at least as bad as NTJs with appropriateness. NTPs are even better than NFPs a lot of the time. (Although a drunken ENTP can be waaaay ridiculous sometimes...)

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] Adam-12: GREAT Display Of Thinking Vs. Feeling
    By LauraIngallsWalton in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-21-2017, 04:19 AM
  2. Thinking vs Feeling
    By Eastwood in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-25-2015, 04:07 PM
  3. [MBTItm] Thinking vs Feeling
    By Doomkid in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 05-12-2014, 06:49 AM
  4. Thinking Vs Feeling
    By oxymoron in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-18-2010, 05:14 PM
  5. Thinking vs. Feeling: What if...
    By Nonsensical in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 06-16-2009, 11:43 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO