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  1. #41
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Well that's why we're disagreeing. You are saying Feeling results in judgments, I'm saying Feeling IS the judgments.
    And by extension, Thinking is conclusions?

    What if I said feeling is an affective state? It results in judgment: you're affected this way so you know something is "negative" or you're affected that way so you know something is "positive". As to what is "Feeling" under Jung, dunno, haven't looked it up.

    This exchange didn't have to be so adversarial.
    (That is an INTJ speaking?)

    A genuine, dyed-in-the-wool, card carrying INFJ I know often speaks in terms of "my thinking" and "this is true" and so on. (She also says things like "I just know...", but be that as it may because I sometimes say things like that too.) And if I wanted to have a new one ripped for me I could attempt to slag off her thinking as "Ya, it's all just your subjective opinion, boo!" To which she would, after nailing my feet to the floor and gently placing hot coals in my gouged out eye sockets, reply, "that I process my impressions and order them via a judgment function that pays attention to what is and is not real means I am just as rational as you, and if you want to test anything I say, you are more than welcome to have your ass handed to you when we both find out I was right all along."

    I have the strong impression that feeling judgment in an INFJ is hardly so superficial as "I just feel it." More like, "I just feel it, and it's stood the test of a huge amount of information I have stored and processed about people and what they really do." Or something like that. (I'm an amateur so decide for yourself if any of that makes sense.)

    Short version: according to the normal, non-MBTI definition of the word "think", INFJs do a very great deal of thinking.


    Is the following a reasonable short-hand test for INTJ vs INFJ?

    "Do you think about people you know or about the ideas behind your work?"

  2. #42
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And by extension, Thinking is conclusions?
    Thinking and Feeling are both judgments. Feeling says "x is good" or "x is bad". Thinking says "x is logically correct" or "x is logically incorrect".

    What if I said feeling is an affective state? It results in judgment: you're affected this way so you know something is "negative" or you're affected that way so you know something is "positive". As to what is "Feeling" under Jung, dunno, haven't looked it up.
    If it's deductive, it's feeling or thinking. If it's inductive, it's sensing or intuition.

    (That is an INTJ speaking?)
    No, my whole point is that I am an INFJ that uses Thinking more than Feeling. Just not Extroverted Thinking. I use Introverted Thinking and Extroverted Feeling. I don't fit with the descriptions of INTJ because those descriptions talk about Extroverted Thinking and Introverted Feeling.

    Is the following a reasonable short-hand test for INTJ vs INFJ?

    "Do you think about people you know or about the ideas behind your work?"
    That's the exact problem the OP was talking about. How is that an OR question? I definitely do both. A lot. There's no reason those two things should be thought of as opposing.

  3. #43
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Is the following a reasonable short-hand test for INTJ vs INFJ?

    "Do you think about people you know or about the ideas behind your work?"
    What does the bit in bold actually mean? Blame it on my poor N usage, but I'm having a hard time processing the meaning of that statement.
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  4. #44
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Blame it on poor Si... I haven't given much of a damn about the detailed spec... like, say...

    An INTJ will work by producing the deeper theory of his work, right? So will an INFJ but the focus will be the people that work there, right? The deeper theory behind who they are, what they're doing, where the job is going... right? The INTJ will be all about the personless concepts. Or if there's people involved and maybe there has to be some question of motivation, the INTJs still going to be coming up with theories of efficient processes that people can join in with because the processes are so damn good and not because the process has been tailored to what the people need in their deep hearts. Right?

    And what's wrong with being an INFJ that thinks? Ti's the third process. It's what gets you high. Ev, maybe you're just really keyed in to what's right and proper for you to be doing--Ni's chugging along, Fe's doing a bang up job of judging, and Ti's kicking in adding in the finishing touches. Why not?

    Are you maybe buying into the dominant world paradigm about thinking being more respectable than feeling? There isn't a whole lot of good media out there about feeling as an accurate and insightful function... so...

    There's a reason INFJs are seers... because they're often right. And it's not magic. It's a lot of hard working and accurate processing. That's what it looks like to me. When I meet up with the INFJs I know, I recognise them as people like me, thinkers. (And as somebody on here has been saying recently, INXJs aren't really thinkers at all, so why don't we just call each other moonbeam dancers?)

  5. #45
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    I don't have the wherewithall to handle that right now, on top of everything else. *exit*

  6. #46
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Incidentally, you know there's two kinds of logic, right? Deductive and Inductive. Deductive logic--as a logic system--is rock solid: if Y is deduced from X, then when X is true, Y definitely is true too. Inductive logic--as a logical system--is weasly: if X is true, then Y is very likely true too.

    My naive understanding of MBTI stuff correlates Ti with Deductive logic and Te with Inductive. Ni, as far as I understand, doesn't have any kind of logical properties at all. It's all just, gee whiz, wow, check out the wonderful strands of stuff that float of this thing... It's just a mass of could be's, might be's, possibilitiez. That mass is totally undifferentiated without the imposition of some order--in the INJ cases, Te or Fe.

    For INTJs Ni goes "wow, what a blast" and Te says, "Yeah, and it gets refined like so," and then Fi chimes in with "I concur, and you better do it too, :sob:"

    For INFJs, Ni goes "wow", Fe goes, "Yeah, and it gets refined like so", and then Ti chimes in with... what? A categorisation of the Fe result into true's and false's?

    But none of it is so simple and discrete. Ni doesn't work on it's own, the judgment function is always there differentiating immediately, and guiding Ni attention, and the third function is always there too sitting in the background guiding too. It's all a mix. It's all a constant processing activity. It's all "thinking." How do you tell the difference between Fe reflection on a topic with a Ti guiding hand, and a Ti focus on categories and details? (Or, hell, you hear about these people with different function orders--maybe, Evan, you're one of those. What's a good way of finding out?)

    Either way, since Ni is the dominant in us, I still like being a moonbeam dancer. We're precise and beautiful in our movement.

  7. #47
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Blame it on poor Si... I haven't given much of a damn about the detailed spec... like, say...

    An INTJ will work by producing the deeper theory of his work, right? So will an INFJ but the focus will be the people that work there, right? The deeper theory behind who they are, what they're doing, where the job is going... right? The INTJ will be all about the personless concepts. Or if there's people involved and maybe there has to be some question of motivation, the INTJs still going to be coming up with theories of efficient processes that people can join in with because the processes are so damn good and not because the process has been tailored to what the people need in their deep hearts. Right?
    I sincerely appreciate the attempt at clarification, but this paragraph just made my head explode like the jury members on South Park after hearing Johnny Cochran's Chewbacca defense.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Kollin's Avatar
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    I agree with this. I think modern psychology has totally misunderstood the role of emotions in the way we, human beings think and feel.

    Maybe a better way to describe the difference is taking care of others vs taking care of yourself. We all know of people who do things because they consider other people's needs and feelings, then there are people who only worry about themselves and everyone else be damned.

    Another thing is that we can control how we feel about things more than we think.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kollin View Post
    Maybe a better way to describe the difference is taking care of others vs taking care of yourself.
    OH DEAR. I wish this thread could be burned.

  10. #50
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kollin View Post
    I agree with this. I think modern psychology has totally misunderstood the role of emotions in the way we, human beings think and feel.

    Maybe a better way to describe the difference is taking care of others vs taking care of yourself. We all know of people who do things because they consider other people's needs and feelings, then there are people who only worry about themselves and everyone else be damned.

    Another thing is that we can control how we feel about things more than we think.
    Um, who are you agreeing with exactly? Because if it's the OP, I think the bit in bold is precisely what the OP wished to get away from.
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