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  1. #21
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Then define the difference between objective evidence and personal experience.
    That's why I was using the psychological journal example. They have defined requirements much better than I can (although some requirements are a little bureaucratical).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I thought, for example, that observing trends among categories of people (and recursively using the trends themselves to categorize further people) can be objective.
    What sort of trends are you talking about? I could say the example you used isn't valid because my ISTJ coach has shown up late plenty of times. On the other hand all of the INTPs I know rarely show up late. The ISTJ is way more organized than the INTPs as a whole, but in my personal experience the judger will show up late more often. See the problem. If employers start hiring based on MBTI to predict future job performance the judgers will always win. When in fact there is only a mild correlation between the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    While personal experience, as I think you might understand it, would be something like "I've never been right about anything, so it's likely I won't be right in the future."
    Personal experience doesn't usually use such words as randomized, mean and standard deviation, if you're getting my drift.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    That's why I was using the psychological journal example. They have defined requirements much better than I can (although some requirements are a little bureaucratical).
    They would, I assume, require that which can't ever be provided by type study, or at least large psychological studies certainly beyond by means. Not that I have any interest in jumping through the hoops when I can already tell you what's what, then move on to another idea without any effort.

    What sort of trends are you talking about? I could say the example you used isn't valid because my ISTJ coach has shown up late plenty of times. On the other hand all of the INTPs I know rarely show up late. The ISTJ is way more organized than the INTPs as a whole, but in my personal experience the judger will show up late more often. See the problem.
    Examples don't invalidate the trend; That's where you're mistaken. The reason I use the gambling "metaphor" is to illustrate likelyhood. Individual accounts of ISTJs showing up late are insignificant compared to the general punctuality of those such typed. I know this, yet I can't prove it, for the above reasons provided. This is the state of things, and if you have a problem dealing with such theoretical trends, 16-type isn't for you.

    If employers start hiring based on MBTI to predict future job performance the judgers will always win. When in fact there is only a mild correlation between the two.
    Only if they practice it inappropriately, by using too superficial stereotypes. For example, perceivers are generally more innovative if assigned an appropriate task, and take pride in that.

    Personal experience doesn't usually use such words as randomized, mean and standard deviation, if you're getting my drift.
    You'd prefer elitist jargon? I'd rather use phrasing most people can get the jist of. Pure academians are a stodgy, boring bunch.

  3. #23
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Examples don't invalidate the trend; That's where you're mistaken. The reason I use the gambling "metaphor" is to illustrate likelyhood. Individual accounts of ISTJs showing up late are insignificant compared to the general punctuality of those such typed. I know this, yet I can't prove it, for the above reasons provided. This is the state of things, and if you have a problem dealing with such theoretical trends, 16-type isn't for you.
    Using the 16 types isn't invalid, just not predictive in a statistically significant way. There's a large difference between the two. Of course examples don't invalidate trends, all you have are individual accounts (read examples).

    In my experience heavy objects fall faster than lighter objects doing repeated experiments. Is there a general trend? Yes. Is there useful predictive accuracy to that experience? No. There's a reason standards exist.

    I'm not saying that MBTI is wrong. Intuitively I believe it has a lot of things right. It just was never designed to predict future actions.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    Using the 16 types isn't invalid, just not predictive in a statistically significant way. There's a large difference between the two. Of course examples don't invalidate trends, all you have are individual accounts (read examples).
    The greater the sample size, and the more consistent the reports, the greater the reliability of the results. To illustrate: A sample size of 100 and a consistency of 95/100 in any given trend is plenty for me to conclude it's valid unless a more impactful counter is introduced later.
    In my experience heavy objects fall faster than lighter objects doing repeated experiments. Is there a general trend? Yes. Is there useful predictive accuracy to that experience? No. There's a reason standards exist.
    What the hell kind of experiments were those? I know what you're getting at, that a 1Kg lead ball falls faster than a feather on Earth, but a couch doesn't fall faster than the lead ball, so it's a poor analogy. It's not something which shows itself true almost all the time with a variety of conditions.

    I'm not saying that MBTI is wrong. Intuitively I believe it has a lot of things right. It just was never designed to predict future actions.
    The purpose of its creation is completely irrelevant. The matter of concern is its actual usefulness. I would imagine you know this, so why introduce the issue?

  5. #25
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    When you take a proverbial shotgun to whatever I consider to be perfectly rational, I'd have to be an entirely different person not to.
    You called my self-analysis incorrect, which you have no basis for. That kind of statement cannot be defended against, and if you take that stance, it's an excuse to throw out the content of any typology post anyone makes. It's also pointlessly condescending and has very little chance of furthering any discussion.

    I'm quite sure I'm more comfortable with Thinking than Feeling, and I certainly have more Thinking ability compared to average than Feeling ability. I am literally a math/logic genius, so unless I am even more of a Feeling genius, it seems clear that I'm better with Thinking than Feeling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm quite sure I'm more comfortable with Thinking than Feeling, and I certainly have more Thinking ability compared to average than Feeling ability. I am literally a math/logic genius, so unless I am even more of a Feeling genius, it seems clear that I'm better with Thinking than Feeling.
    There you go again, misinterpreting the concept. Didn't I mention in this thread that I've known highly intelligent F-types? The question is one of habitual use. An ENFP can score over 150 on an IQ test, which doesn't measure aptitude of emotion, and yet somehow they're still more concerned with ENFP stuff than INTP stuff.

  7. #27
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    There you go again, misinterpreting the concept. Didn't I mention in this thread that I've known highly intelligent F-types? The question is one of habitual use. An ENFP can score over 150 on an IQ test, which doesn't measure aptitude of emotion, and yet somehow they're still more concerned with ENFP stuff than INTP stuff.
    I'm not misinterpreting the concept. I was giving an example of my Thinking ability, which you keep implying I lack. I am more concerned with logic than value judgments. I don't think I necessarily would be like this if I was raised in a more healthy way, but I learned early on to suppress value judgments and turn everything into logic problems since my value judgments were always negatively reinforced (I also have an INTP father, and I modeled a lot of my coping mechanisms on his). Anyhow, I would love to defer to Feeling a lot more, but I cannot, as I have trained myself to consciously logically analyze everything for my entire life.

    I know that I use the Thinking function more than the Feeling function. It's possible that my dominant Intuition could be perceived by you as Feeling, but it's not.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I know that I use the Thinking function more than the Feeling function. It's possible that my dominant Intuition could be perceived by you as Feeling, but it's not.
    On the one hand you say "Throw out function order," and on the other hand you say "Dominant Intuition." I assume this is because you've either tested as Ni dominant or have self-assessed as Ni dominant, the results of which I would disagree with in either case.

    On the third hand, you telling me "I use Thinking more than Feeling/I am a genius." just doesn't convince me that it's true.

  9. #29
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    On the one hand you say "Throw out function order," and on the other hand you say "Dominant Intuition." I assume this is because you've either tested as Ni dominant or have self-assessed as Ni dominant, the results of which I would disagree with in either case.
    If there is no dominant function, MBTI is completely pointless. I don't think function order should be throw out, I just think that a prescribed order for each type should be throw out. My whole point is that two people of the same MBTI type can have differently distributed functions. Not that they can't have an order of functions at all...that doesn't even make any sense.

    On the third hand, you telling me "I use Thinking more than Feeling/I am a genius." just doesn't convince me that it's true.
    Again, your arguing style is ludicrous. You make these claims that cannot be defended against and don't contribute to the discussion at all.

    If you hadn't said "I think that's most likely the result of incorrect self-assessment" we wouldn't be having this conversation. Seriously, why would you claim to know my function order better than I do? I clearly have orders of magnitude more information than you do about myself.

    Stop publicly dismissing my posts. If you had a useful claim, that would be one thing, but you certainly don't in this case. Either 1) You wanted to make my post look silly (for no reason) without contributing anything to this discussion or 2) You were trying to provoke me into replying. It seems probable that you were just provoking me.

    This forum is about discussion, not trying to validate yourself by belittling others. Must be a sad life you lead.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    If there is no dominant function, MBTI is completely pointless.
    Why? There's no reason it should be. Those who receive the proper result based on the four pref's have been categorized, and the only necessary next step is to analyze them. We don't have to apply functions to their psyches, we can analyze their behavior. The observable is all that matters in some schools of thought.

    I don't think function order should be throw out, I just think that a prescribed order for each type should be throw out. My whole point is that two people of the same MBTI type can have differently distributed functions. Not that they can't have an order of functions at all...that doesn't even make any sense.
    That seems self contradictory to me as a whole.

    Again, your arguing style is ludicrous. You make these claims that cannot be defended against and don't contribute to the discussion at all.
    Idea vs. idea, fair play.

    If you hadn't said "I think that's most likely the result of incorrect self-assessment" we wouldn't be having this conversation. Seriously, why would you claim to know my function order better than I do? I clearly have orders of magnitude more information than you do about myself.
    If my claim is so laughable, why take it seriously? Of course, I don't personally think it is.

    Stop publicly dismissing my posts. If you had a useful claim, that would be one thing, but you certainly don't in this case. Either 1) You wanted to make my post look silly (for no reason) without contributing anything to this discussion or 2) You were trying to provoke me into replying. It seems probable that you were just provoking me.
    No, it's just that when I think you or anyone is wrong, I think it better to provide an argument, for the sake of the world. A blog is better suited to unanswerable rhetoric than a message board, which is better suited to dialog.

    This forum is about discussion, not trying to validate yourself by belittling others. Must be a sad life you lead.
    My life is so sad, yet you'd refuse me my one satisfaction gained from belittling you! How cruel. *bawww*

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