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  1. #91
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Inductive leaps are by definition in the realm of Intuition. Making inductive leaps without realizing is due to lack of judgment, mainly Thinking. So it seems unlikely that NTs would make this mistake more often on average than NFs, just because Thinking is essentially the only tool possible to make a deductive argument.

    Anyway, the more dominant the Intuition, the more inductive leaps one will take. Whether or not they will fill in the gaps with Thinking depends on the importance the user places on an exact step-by-step deduction.
    Perhaps on topics like a person's cosmology, the underlying premise has been so long held and thoroughly considered that when looking at somebody else's logic (with a different underlying premise) it all looks like an inductive leap. And with one's own premise, all the deductive reasoning stacked on top of it feels like fact.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Can I keep you around as an NT-translator?
    Oh, you can definitely keep me around, uh as a translator.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Totally. My NF friends sometimes point out where I've inadvertently made people feel uncomfortable related to appropriateness/inappropriateness values. But I have a very strong sense of justice, and desire to treat people with dignity. And sometimes I feel my NF friends make compromises that undermine justice.
    Yeh that's Fi. It maybe be less obvious as a tertiary though. I'm not hugely concerned with justice (well in some senses), but the dignity part is true. I cringe when old or disabled people are treated like children or forms of charity. And when people with things like cerebral palsy are approached as idiots. The fact is in terms of thinking their brain is probably functioning as well or better than the stupid people who do this.

    On being inappropriate.. As an NFP I am good at having total disrespect for the rules of society when they breach no internal rules. But accept most because I can see they are important for stability and functioning. I have no will to be the unique exception that no one else gets to be either. If there is a rule I break I normally feel that it is not important, bears no real effect on people and their well being (indirect and consequential effects included), and all people should be free to break it if I can.

    F style thinking is very underrated also. There is a whole side of the Fi and Fe thing that is used in logical problems, as much as T can be used for people problems. The idea that a cognitive process is purely about one external subject and substitutes for thinking, does not seem to make sense. An F type obviously has whatever the alternative problem solving tool to rationale is. This tool seems to suit understanding of human and social systems more than rationale, hence the stronger link with empathy and the emotions.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    So technically this boils down to F's and T's are essentially the same or F's and T's think in a fundamentally different fashion which in the end limits their capability of understand each other clearly.


    This might be stupid. But I tend to look at it as the second option.

  5. #95
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    From personal experience I can also say that overall I notice that though F's and T's have different priorities, they often arrive at the same conclusion when it matters, though they may take a very different road to get there.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    From personal experience I can also say that overall I notice that though F's and T's have different priorities, they often arrive at the same conclusion when it matters, though they may take a very different road to get there.
    Though I suppose the Fs will probably say what you just said, and the Ts will probably say, "See, I was right!"


  7. #97
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Thinking/Feeling is certainly a false dichotomy.

    Function theory gets around the binary distinction.

    MBTI types are merely adjectives, like calling someone shy. They should only be descriptive, not predictive, and not based on ability.

    (As an F who is commonly called "Ev-bot" because I'm so obsessed with logic, this has always been a big qualm I've had with the system.)

    Another thing I've realized -- I'm gonna use Ni dominants as an example -- if you're an Ni dominant, there are two choices for MBTI type: INTJ and INFJ. You are INTJ if you use Te/Fi and INFJ if you use Fe/Ti. But what if you're an Ni dominant that uses Fe/Ti but prefers Ti to Fe? You can't call yourself INTJ because the functions don't match. But INFJ implies that you use Fe more than Ti. Neither type is a particularly good description of your function usage.

    (I'm using this as an example because it's the situation I'm in. I call myself INFJ, but I hate the fact that people box me into the non-logical category. In fact, I'm more logical than almost anyone I've known besides my INTP father.)

    The solution is to throw out function order, and to make sure not to use MBTI as a predictive tool. Only adjectives.
    The tertiary function in Beebe's theory is called "inflated", meaning it can become very strong, and even appear to "outdo" those who prefer the function. So that would make perfect sense for you. The thing is not to throw the order out entirely, but to realize the order refers more to roles they play.
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  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    So technically this boils down to F's and T's are essentially the same or F's and T's think in a fundamentally different fashion which in the end limits their capability of understand each other clearly.


    This might be stupid. But I tend to look at it as the second option.
    I'd agree with the second option also. There is a difference in the thinking steps as Amargith mentioned, but they come to the same answer when there is a correct one.

    Personally I tend to smooth out the rigidness of logic to work closer to reality. Things don't need to be made true/false or yes/no if they are not. The proof needs to be less absolute. And absolution is achieved if needed by filling in the gaps where it is questionable (I am normally quite aware of where the weaknesses in my theories are).

    Thought experiments often substitute for logical working. I tend to go for the quickest path from A to B, working laterally and incorporating whatever justifies it the most simply. There is normally as much brainpower working on evolving my approach to the problem and thinking patterns, as the actual problem. It could sometimes seem like working purely with Ne because most of this is intuiting, but the Fi plays an important role which is hard to pinpoint. It moves the intuiting toward first principles and underlying truths. It also makes me instinctively aware of inconsistency between concepts. I know if something is out of place almost immediately. I don't always know what to do with it immediately though.

    My mind works well instinctively with probabilistic systems with loss/gain and risk also. Probably why ENFPs do okay in merchant banking.
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  9. #99
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The solution is to throw out function order, and to make sure not to use MBTI as a predictive tool. Only adjectives.
    There are two ways you can throw out the function order. Claim that there is only one function. (Pretend that other functions do not exist).

    Or proclaim the following absurdity, the members of each pair of functions and attitudes are not antithetical to each other, extroversion and introversion, sensation and intuition, thinking and feeling, judgment and perception. (I have already explained thoroughly elsewhere why they are antithetical. Principles of Typology)

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    The axioms of Junging typology are as follows.

    Axiom 1: 8 Functions and 2 attituded exist.

    Axiom 2: For every function and an attitude that exists, there is another function or an attitude that is antithetical to such a function.

    Axiom 3: Because the system contains an antithesis to each function, no two functions can have an equal amount of natural influence. This is the case because if the two antithetical functions in question had an equal amount of influence, cognitive paralysis would ensue. Or quite simply one would not be able to think in any particular way at all.

    The entailment of axioms 2 and 3 is that all of the functions must be placed in a specific order. There will be a function that is the most prevalent of all, therefore the function that is an antithesis to that function would be the most supressed. Then there will be a function that is the second most prevalent of all, and the antithesis to that function will be the second most supressed of all. What I have described above is the model for the order of functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Thinking/Feeling is certainly a false dichotomy.

    Function theory gets around the binary distinction..
    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    MBTI types are merely adjectives, like calling someone shy. They should only be descriptive, not predictive, and not based on ability...
    In MBTI, a Thinker is one who is more comfortable using logic than relying on emotions for decision making. In Jungian typology a Thinker is one who has a stronger natural disposition towards dispassionate judgment than processing of emotion. This often entails a personality trait described by MBTI, but does not necessitate it. What this means is that a Feeler is less likely to be logical than a Thinker, but it is possible for a Feeler to be more logical than a Feeler. Humans, unlike animals have the ability to do differently from what their instincts or dispositions urge them to do. Hence, we can do contrary to our typological dispositions and develop a function that we have a weaker natural disposition towards using more than the function that we have a stronger natural disposition towards using.



    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    But INFJ implies that you use Fe more than Ti. Neither type is a particularly good description of your function usage. ...
    In MBTI it does, in Jungian typology it does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm more logical than almost anyone I've known besides my INTP father.)
    ...
    I don't know about that, you do utter many absurdities.
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  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan
    I'm more logical than almost anyone I've known besides my INTP father.
    yeh, I don't think anyone can be more logical than an INTP . Having an INTP father would've helped your Ti develop too. Probably why your Ti is high.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

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