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  1. #21
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs whereas NFs pursue authenticity. I'm sure the more gratuitous of my corrections must have elicited cringing from my NF classmates who probably caught the same error but couldn't care less about getting credit for it.
    If a person is paying attention to authenticity, then hopefully they'd get the whole picture including the truth of an INTJs motivation. There were often times i was impressed by such people when their honesty was apparent. If they looked like someone who could challenge my mind, then there was even a potential smidge of... It is true that i sometimes felt sorry for teachers who were confused, but i also felt disappointed not being challenged. Once the answer was clear in my mind, i'd move on to observing the interactions and the method by which the teacher arrived at the answer. I started analyzing the social/psychological aspects of what was going on. That's partly why i hesitated to interrupt the natural process, it was more interesting to observe. Time to put on the anthropologist hat.

    For my background, there were added layers of gender and socio-economic expectations. Being a sweet, skinny, poor girl caused people to often reject my intelligence. It was like rolling a boulder uphill, so i gave up. I've put my thumbprint on the world, proved it quietly and throughout the course of my life, the path of least resistance for me. I admire people who can push the boulder uphill, since i can't.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    The two things that drove me through school were:
    (1) being perceived as the smartest.
    (2) being perceived as the "good kid" and not having people dislike me.

    I did not actively toot my own horn, but I did take advantage of any situation I could to reaffirm to myself and others that I was very smart and knowledgeable.

    I feel badly now when I think back to one of my high school science teachers. I think now he was an NF type (mostly because of all the crap he was willing to absorb in pursuit of teaching the kids).

    On one hand, I liked him very much because he always seemed eager to explore something. (One time, I brought in a MacDonald's Happy meal toy -- a little car you could pull back on the ground, then let go and it would zip and zoom all over the place; and he and I and a friend spent the WHOLE CLASS period during lab taking this thing apart and figuring out how and why it worked. The rest of the class was screwing around.)

    And this latter reason was one reason I disliked him. Because he refused to be in charge of the class. Everyone took advantage of him, even blatantly to his face; and he took it like a dog getting kicked and refusing to do anything back to defend itself; and it made him seem incompetent and weak to me.

    To me, this made no sense, and I remember feeling guilty for the disdain I felt for him. Still, it did not stop me from defending my role as the "smart student" -- and because everyone was cheating and suddenly getting better grades than I was (they would get 100's, and I would study and get 92-94's), I was very upset at the unfairness of it. So I cheated once too... and got caught by him (it was someone else's fault I got caught) and then punished.

    But he didn't punish anyone else, even though it was clear they were all cheating based on how their grades were suddenly so good.

    I was very hard on myself for being so "vile" for cheating in the first place and trying to take advantage of him; and part of me felt it was logically justified, because he was not being fair in the classroom. It was a nice little tug of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs whereas NFs pursue authenticity. I'm sure the more gratuitous of my corrections must have elicited cringing from my NF classmates who probably caught the same error but couldn't care less about getting credit for it.
    I always loved correcting my instructors when I could... but I would take great pains to do it in an "acceptable" way, not being TOTALLY rude about it. If the context gave me the opportunity to comment, I would; but I would not override the context just to correct someone.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs
    I've been meaning to post something in regard to this for quite some time now. I have never, in my life, even with my friends, been at all interested in "demonstrating my competence", or pursuing arguments. Even when I knew I was right and the other person was, as my aunt always so delicately put it, talking out of their ass. I simply filed it away; "Oh, person X is the kind of human being who, despite/because of being [insert relevant qualifier] kind of human being, believes [insert belief]. I will keep that in mind for the time when my plans should require such a person."
    Last edited by Mycroft; 07-23-2007 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Forgot a comma!
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #24
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I've been meaning to post something in regard to this for quite some time now. I have never, in my life, even with my friends, been at all interested in "demonstrating my competence", or pursuing arguments. Even when I knew I was right and the other person was, as my aunt always so delicately put it, talking out of their ass.
    You're never argumentative even in the company of people you respect? That would make you different from every INTJ I have ever known. ...Are you quite sure said people would agree to this characterization?

  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    You're never argumentative even in the company of people you respect? That would make you different from every INTJ I have ever known. ...Are you quite sure said people would agree to this characterization?
    The people I respect are my bishops as opposed to my pawns. Why would I risk alienating them?
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #26
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The people I respect are my bishops as opposed to my pawns. Why would I risk alienating them?
    How is pursuing arguments going to alienate people who are worthy of respect?

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Thanks for being part of the forums, Mycroft. Your posts are always a joy to read. (They make me laugh in all the good ways.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thanks for being part of the forums, Mycroft. Your posts are always a joy to read. (They make me laugh in all the good ways.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs whereas NFs pursue authenticity. I'm sure the more gratuitous of my corrections must have elicited cringing from my NF classmates who probably caught the same error but couldn't care less about getting credit for it.
    That'd make me an INFP, I guess. I never felt the need to demontrate competence as much as the need to be myself, or be true to principles. I was an underachiever in school, never cared about much beyond my individualism... I do have some things I show off... but most of it is done to understand. When competing, I'm competing against myself.

    The major exception is when it comes to truth. Unlike the NT stories about correcting people, I only fight when it comes to contradictions - if someone says something that is inherently untrue (self defeating), I am overcome with the impulse to point it out.

    And I show off in concentrated efforts, like cooking and such. Those things are competitive and combines showing off and the need to create/be all artistic.

  10. #30
    Rubber Nipple Salesperson ladypinkington's Avatar
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    Wow, the things being shared and discussed here are very very interesting.
    I love how there are so many different characters in this forum!
    It is interesting how things have shifted to behavior and relating to teachers in school. I don't know if this is an INFJ thing or not- but my grades and attitudes towards my teachers was very reactive and dependent on whether or not they showed a liking to me and or treated me.

    I was always very eager to establish a connection with my teachers- and if a teacher did not respond and was cold to me then I would feel no loyalty to them and would not be afraid to be a smart@$$ in class and correct them. My grades would not matter to me if I felt I didn't matter to my teacher-bad relations with teacher= bad grades.

    If a teacher was loving to me and kind - then I would be a straight A student
    and would defend their honor so to speak,lol. I would not be a smart@$$ and would be as respectful to them as possible. If someone would correct them then I would just add politely- She/He is just human and we all make mistakes.

    My emotions and relationships with people would completely dictate my ambitions and performance. Not something I am proud of and is something I have been working very hard on controlling. BTW- when I took the MBTI test-I was almost completely all feeling,lol!

    I was and have always been a glory hound and very competitive though,lol, so if there was ever a contest or if I made one in my mind-I was focused no matter what. In kindergarten- my teacher actually had to talk to my mother about how I was intimidating all the other students because I was so competitive. I would trash talk even then,lol.

    I remember making butterflies in art class at 6 years old and I have always had a pet peeve of proper color coordination even then-and telling the other fellow students who did not have a concept of color coordination at all that because of this my butterfly is better than yours-your colors are clashing! LOL,lol. I also did the annoying Martin Prince thing and wave my hand to answer the question as if I would die unless called on-with the attitude- oh please pick me, I'm ever so smart!

    Me and hubby made an RPG Nutrition Game
    Play and Vote July 14th to Aug 14th
    http://www.appsforhealthykids.com/ap...ing-vegetables

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