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  1. #51
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    INTJs are just so cool. Most replies here remind me of my INTJ hubby. Lots of good points brought up.

    The man you're describing, soleil, sounds quite a bit like my hubby. The fact that he's initiating the calls and seeing you when he can is a good indicator that he likes you a lot, I think. And, imo, when he's mentioned marriage, even though you think he's scared of commitment, it is an indicator that he's thinking about you as serious-dating material.

    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    He has a fear of commitment & likes his own space, but makes little comments like "Maybe we'll be married 10 years from now" & "Just because I don't call often doesn't mean I don't think of you", etc.. I just ignore it & not take it seriously.
    I'm not sure I would have labeled what my hubby had as a "fear of commitment" so much as a caution about what sort of person to whom he'd end up committing himself. Once he realized he was serious about me, he showed me a write-up about freedom and relationships. I loved the write-up because it talked about making sure your partner feels free to have friendships and not trying to be everything to the partner. I wish we could find that write-up, for it was awesome. I think my loving the write-up and his getting to know me and realizing I wasn't the jealous, controlling type put him more and more at ease about committing.

    Also, I don't think ignoring it or not taking it seriously is the way to go. Sounds like to me that he's reassuring you that he actually likes you. My INTJ wouldn't bother to reassure like that unless he wanted to make sure I knew he cared and wanted to hold onto the relationship.

    When we are around each other, he stares into my eyes a lot & gets a little territorial when we are outside saying I'm his girlfriend & bringing me around people he knows.
    Here's where they're different. Maybe it's an age thing. "My INTJ" was 36 when we met. He never "laid claim" on me like that. We rarely even call each other "husband" or "wife" IRL. It feels like a label of possession to both of us, and we respect each other's independence and individuality too much for that. However, I will say that another guy once observed he was territorial with me.

    I didn't see it until I looked back at the situation from that guy's perspective. "My" INTJ and I were just dating casually at the time, and it was a situation where there were several people going somewhere. I could either ride in the INTJ's car or this other guy's car. The INTJ quietly asked me (and the other guy heard), "You're going to ride with me, aren't you?"

    See, that's very subtle, but even the other guy picked up on it. The INTJ had his sights on me, but was scared of chasing me off (long story)...so he was being subtle yet still feeling me out and wanting to be with me

    He has told me he has cut people out of his life particularly females very quickly.
    Hubby did the same thing. He was particularly picky, for both their sakes and his own. If they were clingy or were trying to mold themselves to be what they thought he wanted, he cut the ties quickly. He knew enough about himself to know he needed to be with a strong-willed, self-assured/secure woman with an already-established personality and way of doing things. He didn't want someone who'd mold themselves for him. The INTJ you know may be the same way.

    His approach comes off very cold, but I can see past it & see that he's a decent person.
    Good that you can see past what seems like coldness. With hubby, he just knew what he wanted and knew what type of person would mesh best with his own strong personality. To him, life is too short to waste a bunch of time trying to force relationships to work. The logical approach may seem cold, but there's actually quite a bit of caring about others behind the decisions.

    We have this strong, powerful kinetic energy/chemistry, but we never talk about it. In the past, he said we were kindred spirits.
    Well, it seems to me like he's leaving you all kinds of clues that he likes you and is thinking of you in a "serious relationship potential" sort of way. Be patient, if he's worth it to you. With us, there was a lot of tiptoeing around each other because neither one of us wanted to make the other feel trapped or scare them off. Finally, he left enough hints that he liked me that, for the first time ever in a relationship, I got assertive and pursued him a bit. I did it by honing in on what he liked and arranging for him to have them or to experience them. He got the message.

    What does he want? I would love to just be apart of his life no matter what. He's a unique person who I respect & feel a certain level of connection with.
    That. That right there is what you should talk about next time he says something about you guys maybe being married 10 years from now. If I were you, I think I'd say to him something like this: "You know, whether we're just friends all our lives or friends as marriage partners, I hope you're in my life somehow. I respect you and want to be there for you, no matter what." That opens up the topic in a way where you guys may just get into the conversation of where the relationship is going and what he has in mind. And, before you are placed in that situation, be thinking about what you want out of the relationship. How do you want him in your life? Why? What would it be like to be with him, long-term?

    Keep this in mind, though. Hubby came across a lot of girls who thought they could see into him....see past his "coldness" and "see the decent person inside." Come to find out, he was more reserved and "cold" than they realized. In the end, they felt they couldn't "melt him" enough for their tastes. He was just too logic-oriented and unemotional for them. You may think you'll get him out of this, but don't go there. He'll know he is loved when there's a girl who accepts him for the way he is now. And, that write-up he showed me about a relationship being mature and stable enough to tolerate the partner having other friends...that's as much for the partner of an INTJ as it is for the INTJ's freedom. When intense emotion needs expressed, having other friends around on which to bounce those is healthy for the partner as well as easier on the INTJ. When the emotions are talked out and at a calmer level after getting them out another way, that's when a productive talk with the INTJ will work best. At least in my experience. That's not a bad thing. Just the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    He gets super defensive if you question him or ask him anything that would seem vulnerable. I asked him one time if he missed talking to me (I was being semi-playful) & he responds with some sarcastic remark... "If I didn't, I wouldn't of called you".
    He probably feels he's expressed his feelings/thoughts to you enough for you to realize by now that he likes you. So, your question probably surprised him a bit. One of the things that bothers hubby is when he feels he needs to consistently reassure people of what he thinks should be obvious to them. I think one needs to be pretty self-assured and independently happy in order to have a continuously good relationship with a strong INT. Maybe I'm wrong to make a blanket statement like that. I know it is the truth for the relationship between others and hubby anyway.

    I asked him one time what he thought about the idea of soulmates & he just came at me sideways. I wasn't saying he was my soulmate or anything along those lines. I was totally turnoff by his response & just tried to forget about him.
    To hubby, the whole "soulmate" concept is a pretty nebulous, emotional thing. But, he can really relate to the mindmate concept, and we've got that going strong. It's all terminology/semantics. Whatever it is called, you're saying there's a connection there. Here again, if there's a difference between the two to you, take some time to think about what you want in a relationship. How far do you want a connection to go and on what levels? Would that level be reached in a relationship with him?

    He's the least emotional person I have ever met. He has a very high T. I been questioning whether the problem is his high T or possibly him being a narcissist?
    Oh, if I had a dollar for every time people thought hubby was arrogant or completely without emotion or regard for other people.... His T is very high. So is mine, though. I also get accused of being arrogant and, at times, uncaring.

    Maybe I'm being a dingbat about it, but I can sense he's more than what he's showing. If there's any vulnerable talk going on, it's him bringing it up....not me. I feel uncomfortable asking him. He might accuse me of being too "emotional". I can accept & partake in mental games, but sometimes I just want to say what I want without getting the third degree. I am just thinking about just giving up on the idea of any connection with him.
    The relationship between hubby and I was kind of weird at first. A lot more serious and awkward than it is now. Once he figured out he could tease me without losing me or my thinking him "mean" and, to his glee, could tease right back and "lawyer-talk" him into the corners and traps he had originally set for me, the relationship really blossomed. The mind-mate thing. As time passed, it morphed into a soul-mate thing in his mind where he actually brought it up as a possibility between us. (smirk) Keep in mind that this is after 2 years of dating and then almost 10 years of marriage. He's slow, but adorable, God love him. (grin) The little critters are so cute in this. ((hugging him in my mind and soon to go hug him for real))

    We've had our rough moments, for sure. I'll not romanticize it to you. Be sure of what you yourself want, then take some patient action.

    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    I noticed he goes out of his way to tell me how many girls hit on him, how so and so looks good, blah blah blah. I have this feeling he's trying to make me jealous. It just makes me chuckle actually. I don't want to be one of those women who give men ultimatums.
    And, that's probably why he's still interested in you....still likes you. Had I been the jealous/possessive type, I think hubby would have dropped me like he had the others. And, that would have been the right thing to do.

    This is going to sound so ENFP of me, but I just care for him as a person & would be there for him even if there is no personal relationship between us.
    So, tell him that. If you're scared to tell him that, in whatever form, then perhaps you are wanting this to work on a dating level more than you let yourself believe. If you, as a friend, wouldn't be scared to tell a female friend what you just wrote here, then that really says to me that this has gone beyond "just friendship" in your mind. If so, slow down a bit and make sure he knows you're his friend and want to be there for him no matter what the future holds. When you can truly settle with the idea that all you may ever be is just friends, then it can maybe go in a deeper direction later.

    Oh btw, I remember he called me out of the blue to see if I forgot about him, to see if I was involved with someone. Psh.
    If it were me, I think I'd date other people, if I wanted to. And, like he is a friend, talk about them to him, if I wanted to...without being cruel or trying to make him jealous. I never played those mind games, and I think hubby respected that about me. At one point, we were dating other people and just friends with each other. We'd talk about those other people, like we were friends of the same sex. Eventually, we stopped dating other people and thinking about other people because we were drawn so much to each other. If he wants your relationship to be something more, then he'll probably let you know before you "get away."

    P.S. -- As pippi brought out, not all INTJs are alike. The one you know may not be like my hubby much at all.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    I won't ever again! Normally, I just let it go over my head because I know it's who he is. I am not a demanding person & absolutely loathe conflict, but I was just so angry & had to say what I felt. It was important for me to understand his thought process so, I wouldn't take things so personally. I'm better now & can ride it out with him. It's just so different for me to step outside myself & adjust to his way of being. It's challenging.
    If given the right situations, an NTJ should emotionally mature with age. Don't give up if you think it's worth it.

  3. #53
    Senior Member TPol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Actually, it's subtle but the signals are there. ...[good stuff snipped for space reasons]....INTJ affection/love is a marathon, not a sprint.
    A whole lot of posts happened while I was typing my epistle there. I agree with everything said in 01011010's posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    There is this guy I was seeing/talking to (long distance) for about 3 years. We still talk here & there. He lives in Canada & I live in the states. He comes around my parts maybe twice a year, but he keeps in touch by phone (he does most of the calling btw). He has a fear of commitment & likes his own space, but makes little comments like "Maybe we'll be married 10 years from now" & "Just because I don't call often doesn't mean I don't think of you", etc.. I just ignore it & not take it seriously. When we are around each other, he stares into my eyes a lot & gets a little territorial when we are outside saying I'm his girlfriend & bringing me around people he knows. I usually just laugh & keep it moving. He has told me he has cut people out of his life particularly females very quickly. His approach comes off very cold, but I can see past it & see that he's a decent person. He has called just to ask how I'm doing, what I'm reading, etc. etc. It's just a weird thing because I never met an INTJ guy before & it's so different from other interactions I've had or have now. I must admit because of him I learned to keep my distance from people more than I already was. We have this strong, powerful kinetic energy/chemistry, but we never talk about it. In the past, he said we were kindred spirits. According to him, I'm too introverted & need to put myself out there more, HA! coming from an INTJ to an ENFP. I really don't know exactly what I'm trying to get out of this topic...so, I guess my question would be, what the heck is this? I have never been in this predicament before. What does he want? I would love to just be apart of his life no matter what. He's a unique person who I respect & feel a certain level of connection with.
    I completely missed this post.

    Frankly, it seems like he's in love with you. Serious. 3 years of investment speaks for itself.

    It's not necessarily fear of commitment, but wanting to see how it pans out over a long period of time. There seem to be many other variables as well. Distance for starters. If he even mentioned marriage to you, then he is seriously thinking about it. Marriage is as serious of a word as love. It's not said lightly. You can bet he's given it much consideration and understands the implications it has by mentioning it to you, even casually. Yet, he stated it might be 10 years in the making. That leads me to believe you are both really young.

    The not always contacting, but saying your still on his mind is something I have heard most INTs say. It's the equivalent of saying he misses you and your important to him.

  5. #55
    Senior Member TPol's Avatar
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    ^ (nods)

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    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    Okay, a question for the INTJ's ... how do you show affection to someone you are really interested in romantically? Gestures? Do you do the opposite of what you feel?
    Soleil,

    I find this thread very productive. Incidentally, I'm very fond of ENFPs, and I think we can both gain through the exchange of information (i.e. you learn more about INTJs and we can see how our behavior is interpreted under the ENFP optic).

    To address your questions, I think it will be more productive to focus on a particular case involving an ENFP rather than focusing on how I show affection in general. Basically, I have known this women for a few years now and it took about 2 or 3 years for me to mention that I used to have a crush on her (and still do to some extent, though it is mainly an msn relationship at this point). This person can be described as beautiful, charming, full of life, precious, fickle, extraverted, random, creative, and compassionate. In a word, she represented chaos which contrasts sharply with my obessesion with order and planning. Furthermore, we went to university together and sometimes when I would be studying I would turn around or look up instinctively to find that she entered the room. And if she was stationed somewhere and I suddenly turned a corner and came into focus her eyes would already be fixed on me. It was as if there was some sort of magnetic kinetic energy. Since I've known her, I probably think about her close to once a day. In political science literature, there are often two main explanations for explaining ethnic conflict: social constructivism and premordialism. Social constructivism is the idea that negative opinions about other ethnicities are socially constructed and shaped by discourse, context, etc. Premordial explanations on the other hand suggest ethnic conflict comes out of some sort of premordial ooze that's inherent in our genes and causes us to think that way. Well, I was drawn to this particular ENFP in an innate premordial way-it is something almost physical and more powerful than anything I could build up in my mind.

    That's what I thought about her. Was I able to get any of this across? No. It took me about 3 years to tell her that I "used" to have a crush on her (which I still do I'm just too risk averse to tell her that). The footnote to made however is that I began liking her while in a long-term relationship which didn't help. There was one time where my relationship was at the bitter-end and I was out with her at a club for her birthday and she looked goergeous and I could have definately made out with her and sealed the deal but like I said I was in a relationship--albeit a decaying one--and have more character than that.

    I've been asking her out on and off for a while now but she always comes up with excuses. The other day she told me that I'm "smart, hot, kind, bla bla and if she was 4 years younger she'd be trying to get in my pants" and I completely snapped at her and said "you're one year older and I'm nearly twice as mature, that's no argument", and then I logged off msn. As much as I'm physically attracted to her she doesn't seem to be intellectually compatible at all. She's random and flaky but there's something I like about it.

    Now, contrast this with an ISFJ. For some reason, I find ISFJs easy to talk to and full of personality. I know this one ISFJ and her mind is jam-packed with information and facts and as encyclopedic as mine. It's a real hoot when we get together or even talk on the phone...she's like a little sister.

  7. #57
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    Soleil, he likes you. It doesn't get any clearer than that. I don't call anyone unless I've already previously made a commitment to do so. And I refuse to repeatedly call people, to be the one who takes the initiative all the time. I insist that it's "their turn" when I've judged myself to have fulfilled my responsibility to call and arrange/organise meet ups. That he is willing to do so, for a long period of time, signals that he really likes you. Also, the traveling to see you bit - INTJs find the most efficient ways to do things. He would not go out of his way, giving up his time and money, if he did not genuinely like spending time with you (and see a future with you).

    Sorry, mental games are the primary way that INTJs deal with the world. Sometimes it's possible to break through that just with sincerity and random silliness, though. That's a tip. If an INTJ is willing to go faux-intellectual about something completely silly with you, it's a sign that they like and trust you. The intellectual games are a means of protection, or rationalising the world. If we let you in beyond that, it means that you're "in".

    I also don't hesitate to cut people out of my life when I realise that it's going nowhere (exception being family). Pain in the short term is less hurtful than dragging things out with drama for a long time.

    It's really interesting reading TPol's view from the other side of the pond. She reads us well, and gives good advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TPol View Post
    A whole lot of posts happened while I was typing my epistle there. I agree with everything said in 01011010's posts.
    Tpol,

    Thank you so much for your input! I feel so much better that I can communicate my thoughts & feelings about my dealings with an INTJ with people who understand. I've brought it up to a couple of people & they claim he's playing with my head & doesn't care about me at all. I don't think these people can really understand the complexitity of an NTJ or any NT for that matter. Your relationship with hubby sounds wonderful! It's a lot of work, but you sound so happy . For a long time, I struggled with the idea of a future with him. Being an ENFP, I feel so much & it was difficult at first to take it all in. He seemed so detached from anything emotional & I questioned myself thinking maybe it was just me. The thing is I am very guarded with myself too. I been through a lot of unnecessary drama/trauma in the past & I become so weary of people & their intentions. When I met him, I was going through a spiritual/psychological depression (still am) & it was a breathe of fresh air. To be honest, I never met any intellectuals or people who really interested me so, when I met him I was drawn in. We think very similarly except he's not emotional, lol. When he compliments me I pretty much think about it over & over again for weeks on in! I sound like such a dork, but he challenges my mind the way I always wanted. Never had it before. I pretty much dumbed myself down or neglected how I really felt to cater to people in the past. I was a people pleaser for so long. I am a peacemaker naturally, I want harmony, no drama! Since I've known him, I evolved so much as a person. I became more intolerant of all the bs & pretty much stepped my T game up . When I can make him laugh or enlighten him in some way, it's literally the best feeling. Tpol, I would like to hear more about your relationship with your hubby. If you don't mind, I find it so endearing!
    Om–ba–ara–minaya–sabaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I completely missed this post.

    Frankly, it seems like he's in love with you. Serious. 3 years of investment speaks for itself.

    It's not necessarily fear of commitment, but wanting to see how it pans out over a long period of time. There seem to be many other variables as well. Distance for starters. If he even mentioned marriage to you, then he is seriously thinking about it. Marriage is as serious of a word as love. It's not said lightly. You can bet he's given it much consideration and understands the implications it has by mentioning it to you, even casually. Yet, he stated it might be 10 years in the making. That leads me to believe you are both really young.

    The not always contacting, but saying your still on his mind is something I have heard most INTs say. It's the equivalent of saying he misses you and your important to him.

    We are the same age (I'm 26, btw). 10 years seems so long. I wonder why that far along in the future, lol. I never liked guys my age, but he's so intelligent & older in spirit. He has a strong aura about him. It's the craziest feeling I ever had. He asked me if I plan to live in the state I live in now long-term & if I would consider relocating somewhere else. Of course, he didn't put himself in the equation (never that! ). To be honest, I pretty much accepted the idea that I might be alone. If I can't have the relationship I really want then, I will be single. I am highly idealistic & have an idea of what I want already in my head. I don't want perfection or any of that nonsense, but someone I will always be stimulated by, who will evolve with me, but at the same time not try to change me. I would never try to make him into something he's not. I don't call people either. I need my own space, I appreciate & need solitude. I don't want to be a siamese twin. I have my own identity & it's very important for me to be me. I must say when I see my phone ringing & see his name/number pop up, I start smiling. . I always wonder if he thinks of me.
    Om–ba–ara–minaya–sabaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    Soleil,

    I find this thread very productive. Incidentally, I'm very fond of ENFPs, and I think we can both gain through the exchange of information (i.e. you learn more about INTJs and we can see how our behavior is interpreted under the ENFP optic).

    To address your questions, I think it will be more productive to focus on a particular case involving an ENFP rather than focusing on how I show affection in general. Basically, I have known this women for a few years now and it took about 2 or 3 years for me to mention that I used to have a crush on her (and still do to some extent, though it is mainly an msn relationship at this point). This person can be described as beautiful, charming, full of life, precious, fickle, extraverted, random, creative, and compassionate. In a word, she represented chaos which contrasts sharply with my obessesion with order and planning. Furthermore, we went to university together and sometimes when I would be studying I would turn around or look up instinctively to find that she entered the room. And if she was stationed somewhere and I suddenly turned a corner and came into focus her eyes would already be fixed on me. It was as if there was some sort of magnetic kinetic energy. Since I've known her, I probably think about her close to once a day. In political science literature, there are often two main explanations for explaining ethnic conflict: social constructivism and premordialism. Social constructivism is the idea that negative opinions about other ethnicities are socially constructed and shaped by discourse, context, etc. Premordial explanations on the other hand suggest ethnic conflict comes out of some sort of premordial ooze that's inherent in our genes and causes us to think that way. Well, I was drawn to this particular ENFP in an innate premordial way-it is something almost physical and more powerful than anything I could build up in my mind.

    That's what I thought about her. Was I able to get any of this across? No. It took me about 3 years to tell her that I "used" to have a crush on her (which I still do I'm just too risk averse to tell her that). The footnote to made however is that I began liking her while in a long-term relationship which didn't help. There was one time where my relationship was at the bitter-end and I was out with her at a club for her birthday and she looked goergeous and I could have definately made out with her and sealed the deal but like I said I was in a relationship--albeit a decaying one--and have more character than that.

    I've been asking her out on and off for a while now but she always comes up with excuses. The other day she told me that I'm "smart, hot, kind, bla bla and if she was 4 years younger she'd be trying to get in my pants" and I completely snapped at her and said "you're one year older and I'm nearly twice as mature, that's no argument", and then I logged off msn. As much as I'm physically attracted to her she doesn't seem to be intellectually compatible at all. She's random and flaky but there's something I like about it.

    Now, contrast this with an ISFJ. For some reason, I find ISFJs easy to talk to and full of personality. I know this one ISFJ and her mind is jam-packed with information and facts and as encyclopedic as mine. It's a real hoot when we get together or even talk on the phone...she's like a little sister.
    You didn't think she was intellectually compatiable with you? Why do you say that? I'm curious. So, do you feel you are drawn to ENFP's through their energy & physical attributes only? She wasn't full of personality? Blasphemy! Help me understand, brother . I feel the same way about calling. I am so conscious about who called who last. I called him too, but when he calls 7-8/10 I pick up. Not always the case with him so, I just wait on him. I guess I am a bit prideful, lol. . I can play the game too. It's not such a bad thing though, right?!
    Om–ba–ara–minaya–sabaha
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