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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #461
    Member Petite Etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, INTJs are perfectly capable of being mistaken, just like everyone else.

    I'd ask you to read my above post, though, about the problem of causation--and then tell me how you're able to make the jump from "there must be some first cause" to "Jesus Christ is my omnipotent, omniscient, eternally loving and forgiving lord and savior, he has supernatural powers and I have abundant specific and definite information on him."

    When you can do that, other NTs will probably begin to respect your belief system more.
    yeah, i acknowledge that fact that my views of God could be wrong, but i also acknowledge that so can yours

    i don't really like to argue with people about my beliefs because i consider my spirituality to be personal. and i know i can't convince people anyways so i don't really see any purpose to it.

  2. #462
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    A small quibble:

    I don't believe that we can never know for certain; I believe that we don't presently know for certain and may not ever.
    This may be a difference between "P" and "J", but I don't think I can ever know anything for certain. For each piece of knowledge there are merely degrees of certainty.
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  3. #463
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    This may be a difference between "P" and "J", but I don't think I can ever know anything for certain. For each piece of knowledge there are merely degrees of certainty.
    Yup, each item gets tagged in terms of "knownability".

    And honestly, how could we ever think we COULD know everything? The most gaping weakness: We don't know what we don't know. Therefore how would we recognize there's something that we don't know, if we don't know it?

    Unconfirmability seems inherent.

    Quote Originally Posted by petite
    yeah, i acknowledge that fact that my views of God could be wrong, but i also acknowledge that so can yours. i don't really like to argue with people about my beliefs because i consider my spirituality to be personal. and i know i can't convince people anyways so i don't really see any purpose to it.
    My ESTP father never wanted to talk about faith either under the claim it was "personal" ... although I thought that was utter BS for him, it was because he hated being subservient to something besides himself and didn't want to place himself in a position where he might look bad if he lost an argument.

    But in general, yes, the arguing for many seems counter-productive, although NTs tend to share BY challenging ideas. Of course they are more apt to argue concepts and principles; the STs tend to focus more on points and detail.

    I think sharing is cool. You get my story, I get yours, maybe there's something there that will resonate. That's a positive interaction not just due to lack of aggression but also because it assumes the other person is responsible and smart enough to figure things out for herself, rather than supposing that one needs to somehow "force" other people to spiritually develop in some way and otherwise they wouldn't.
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  4. #464
    Member Petite Etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    But in general, yes, the arguing for many seems counter-productive, although NTs tend to share BY challenging ideas. Of course they are more apt to argue concepts and principles; the STs tend to focus more on points and detail.

    I think sharing is cool. You get my story, I get yours, maybe there's something there that will resonate. That's a positive interaction not just due to lack of aggression but also because it assumes the other person is responsible and smart enough to figure things out for herself, rather than supposing that one needs to somehow "force" other people to spiritually develop in some way and otherwise they wouldn't.
    I actually am open to talking about religion for the most part, it really just depends on the person i'm talking to. I've had a lot of experiences where people just become overly aggressive though (mainly ENTPs). I agree sharing is cool, but if people are just going to be blatantly disrespectful or try to force me to think like them, i'm not going to bother discussing my beliefs with them.

  5. #465
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    This may be a difference between "P" and "J", but I don't think I can ever know anything for certain. For each piece of knowledge there are merely degrees of certainty.
    I think there are some examples of propositions we can know to be true for certain; "2+2=4", "a square has 4 sides", and, "given p&q, one can infer p (via simplification)".

  6. #466
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    I think there are some examples of propositions we can know to be true for certain; "2+2=4", "a square has 4 sides", and, "given p&q, one can infer p (via simplification)".
    Where is your undeniable proof of that? Inductive reasoning does not count here.

    I think you will find there isn't any, and that you can never truly know. Like the example someone gave a while ago, how do you do know that every time you think of 2+2, some force doesn't make you think it's 4, when in fact it's actually 5?

  7. #467
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Governor Blagojovich says, "If you can't prove it, it didn't happen." See how good that works?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #468
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Where is your undeniable proof of that? Inductive reasoning does not count here.

    I think you will find there isn't any, and that you can never truly know. Like the example someone gave a while ago, how do you do know that every time you think of 2+2, some force doesn't make you think it's 4, when in fact it's actually 5?
    But you can never prove that. More importantly, there is no evidence that that is true. You can always ask "what if." You can ask questions about consciousness however you will be forever stuck in consciousness. There is no way to observe anything outside of consciousness. Therefore it is largely irrelevant to question consciousness I would say.

    Personally I ignore questions like that and don't let my mind play with them. They are fun sometimes though...
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
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  9. #469
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalMethod View Post
    But you can never prove that. More importantly, there is no evidence that that is true. You can always ask "what if." You can ask questions about consciousness however you will be forever stuck in consciousness. There is no way to observe anything outside of consciousness. Therefore it is largely irrelevant to question consciousness I would say.

    Personally I ignore questions like that and don't let my mind play with them. They are fun sometimes though...
    That is my position exactly.

  10. #470
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    That is my position exactly.
    I just popped into this thread and saw your post.
    Thought of my opinion and response and posted it.
    I am unaware of any debates going on or whatnot.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
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