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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #321
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I don't spend time arguing about God so I have little experience in the fine art. But I do have a question.

    How do people who don't believe in anything which can't be measured or observed deal with the concept of mindfulness? Multiple realities?

    What's your standard argument about consciousness?
    - What do you mean by "mindfulness"?
    - Multiple realities is an explanation intended to make sense of certain data. Whether it is true or not remains to be seen, so myself and people like me adopt a "wait and see" stance.
    - Consciousness is a sticky wicket. The short and long of it is that nobody really knows for certain. (It should be noted, however, that there are a variety of perfectly plausible theories under consideration. I state this in an effort to stave off the inevitable, "See? Hence, God.")
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  2. #322
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    No. I'm not going to say "See?"

    I'm trying to understand the explanation you give. I keep thinking that if you believe that you have consciousness you need to take that on your own personal faith. Something is using the brain's power to interpret the environment. Where is it? What is it? Do you need to take it on faith that it exists?

    What fuels all that is happening around us? How does anyone answer that?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #323
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    No. I'm not going to say "See?"

    I'm trying to understand the explanation you give. I keep thinking that if you believe that you have consciousness you need to take that on your own personal faith. Something is using the brain's power to interpret the environment. Where is it? What is it? Do you need to take it on faith that it exists?

    What fuels all that is happening around us? How does anyone answer that?

    Where is it? In the body, probably in the lower level brain.
    What is it? A set of behavioral patterns our bodies created through time to enhance our capability of survival.

    I don't really think about it. If one wants to, he can philosophically conclude that one is conscious as well as one can philosophically conclude that one is not conscious.

  4. #324
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Since what the nature of "consciousness" is so far from consensus as to render the term nearly meaningless, I'll address free will:

    It might not exist at all. SolitaryWalker addresses this point on the basis of the theories of philosophers like Kant, Hegel, and Spinoza frequently in some manner or another in his posts. Free will is also questionable from a scientific standpoint as well.

    I'm inclined to believe that it does exist, and continue to expand my knowledge base in order to form a more educated opinion.

    I'll admit, that it may certainly be nothing more than wishful thinking on my part. As a result, I remain agnostic on the subject and don't go about demanding that people disprove free will entirely for me to stop believing in it. If someone were to ask of me directly whether I believe free will absolutely exists, I would be honest and confess that no, I do not.

    I think this is an important point to make.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #325
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Edit: Addressed to Darfur.

    I am trying to be a nonbiased observer here. But I wonder if that doesn't sound a lot like, "Yes. God exists. We just haven't figured out yet how to prove it."

    This is the reason I don't share much of my opinions trying to influence others one way or the other. Both sides are, at some point, unable to provide ultimate proof for their argument.

    Both sides say, "Wait until there's proof, then you'll believe." Where to go with that?

    The scientifically bent will accept that it hasn't been proven yet, but won't allow the religiously-minded the same benefit of the doubt for their beliefs.

    I'm open still to hearing how anyone here resolves that other than stubborn insistence on the unprovable.

    Edit: Guess what I'm asking is a personal question. Not anyone's opinion of some "authority's" opinion. (The "authority" is in quotes because no one can be an authority on a theory other than what the theory, itself, actually states and not much else.)
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #326
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I think, Mycroft, to evade the issue of consciousness evades the entire issue. "Something" fuels the engine and no one knows what it is.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I think, Mycroft, to evade the issue of consciousness evades the entire issue. "Something" fuels the engine and no one knows what it is.
    Uh, electro-chemical signals? It explains it quite nicely.

  8. #328
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Edit: Addressed to Darfur.

    I am trying to be a nonbiased observer here. But I wonder if that doesn't sound a lot like, "Yes. God exists. We just haven't figured out yet how to prove it."

    This is the reason I don't share much of my opinions trying to influence others one way or the other. Both sides are, at some point, unable to provide ultimate proof for their argument.

    Both sides say, "Wait until there's proof, then you'll believe." Where to go with that?

    The scientifically bent will accept that it hasn't been proven yet, but won't allow the religiously-minded the same benefit of the doubt for their beliefs.

    I'm open still to hearing how anyone here resolves that other than stubborn insistence on the unprovable.

    Edit: Guess what I'm asking is a personal question. Not anyone's opinion of some "authority's" opinion. (The "authority" is in quotes because no one can be an authority on a theory other than what the theory, itself, actually states and not much else.)
    The notion that people who believe in science have "faith" in scientists and researchers just as the religious have "faith" in their priests is untenable.

    There is a fundamental difference: if I want to know how scientists arrived at their conclusions, I can learn how. I can attend university, study the relevant field, acquire the necessary knowledge, perform tests myself, and see with my own two eyes how the evidence upon which the theory was developed was attained. If I think that their evidence is based on flawed research, I can attempt to disprove their research. I can carry out experiments of my own.

    Religion never offers anything beyond faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I think, Mycroft, to evade the issue of consciousness evades the entire issue. "Something" fuels the engine and no one knows what it is.
    I'm curious as to how you construe my statement that I continue to expand my base of knowledge in order to better address the question as an "evasion"?
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  9. #329
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Erudur, yet again someone has pointed out that an incomplete theory is better than no theory at all, to which you've responded that an incomplete theory doesn't disprove intelligent design.

    As far as I can tell, the only thing you've actually taken to heart in the course of this entire discussion is to use forms of the term "unconvinced" rather than "incredulous" so your argument from incredulity will, if nothing else, not be blatantly apparent.

    It hasn't. I'm waiting, as well.
    Mycroft, now you're being snarky again.

    And again you are assigning a moral high ground to your incomplete theory than to intelligent design theory. My argument is no more "from incredulity" than yours is.

    I can give you books. I'm not finding online articles that complete the circle well enough. But I'm guessing you aren't ready to spend coin on the subject yet.

    The incomplete theories are not the problem, its the theories with impossible gaps.

    On the article you posted. I am also not saying that the research doesn't demonstrate an increase in complexity and an addition of information, the article isn't detailed enough. But, reading between the lines, it doesn't look like it does. That is THE definitive step.

  10. #330
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I am trying to be a nonbiased observer here. But I wonder if that doesn't sound a lot like, "Yes. God exists. We just haven't figured out yet how to prove it."

    This is the reason I don't share much of my opinions trying to influence others one way or the other. Both sides are, at some point, unable to provide ultimate proof for their argument.

    Both sides say, "Wait until there's proof, then you'll believe." Where to go with that?

    The scientifically bent will accept that it hasn't been proven yet, but won't allow the religiously-minded the same benefit of the doubt for their beliefs.

    I'm open still to hearing how anyone here resolves that other than stubborn insistence on the unprovable.
    Oh that by all means is just a belief of mine. You asked for my opinion, that's what I gave, an opinion. While I consider that to be a logical possibility, I'm by no means certain.

    Ultimate proof does not exist in this world. It never will and if it did, it wouldn't be considered proof by a lot of the encountered parties.

    That is fairly unlikely to happen. All of us have our pre packed beliefs put out that are not going to cahnge anytime soon.

    All people believe in something which can't be measured or is absurd, that is the nature of a human being. The difference is how much tolerance do we allow in the amounts that give ourselves.



    Also, I'm not a region of Sudan and the is no such thing as a unbiased observer.

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