User Tag List

First 21293031323341 Last

Results 301 to 310 of 505

Thread: NTs and God

  1. #301
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    I'd actually think Ni-Te/Te-Ni would be more accepting of a God than Ne-Ti/Ti-Ne. But that isn't really based on much, just a presumption.



  2. #302
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    As for religious beliefs being irrational, for something to be considered rational, two criteria must be met:

    1.) The premises must be verifiable fact. (Some definitions assert that the premises must simply be axiomatic, but insomuch as, say, the existence of angels was once considered an "axiom", such definitions are flawed and ought to be disregarded.)

    2.) The conclusions must be drawn upon the basis of logic.
    Can the premise of any cosmology be verifiable fact? The Big Bang Theory is a foundational component of many people's cosmology, but does not meet your first criteria. Is this theory (or a cosmology including this theory) irrational?

  3. #303
    Senior Member Samurai Drifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Big Bang theory is strongly supported by observable evidence and phenomena, such as the cosmic microwave background radiation.

    The "God" theory is supported by... no evidence whatsoever.
    Hands in the air, it's a robbery.

  4. #304
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Drifter View Post
    Big Bang theory is strongly supported by observable evidence and phenomena, such as the cosmic microwave background radiation.

    The "God" theory is supported by... no evidence whatsoever.
    The Big Bang Theory fits comfortably into cosmologies that both include God and exclude God.

    As part of some cosmologies that exclude God, The Big Bang Theory presupposes eternally existing matter. This presupposition is most certainly not verifiable fact. Therefore, by MyCrofts definition, these cosmologies are irrational.

  5. #305
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    190

    Default

    Additionally, there may be cosmologies (exluding God) that presuppose some event where some kind of nothingness separated into matter and anti-matter* and then "Big Banged" into what we see today.

    This cosmology also has an unverifiable premise.

    In short, if you go back far enough, you are forced to consider an unverifiable premise. Perhaps that is irrational. I'm not sure if MyCrofts definition of "rational" is a generally accepted one. He takes it a step further than the definitions I've read.

    I think it is important for all those with cosmologies exclusive of God to realize that they have no more rational a premise than those with cosmologies that include God.

    * anti-matter being another idea based on unverified conjecture

    The "God" theory is supported by... no evidence whatsoever.
    This statement is as wrong as it is patronizing.

  6. #306
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Drifter View Post
    Big Bang theory is strongly supported by observable evidence and phenomena, such as the cosmic microwave background radiation.

    The "God" theory is supported by... no evidence whatsoever.
    This is what I hear from many NTs that I know. One argument that I've heard from one NT (ENTP? INTP?) is that God is an invention meant to comfort people who are afraid of death. This NT once said to me (and I'm paraphrasing hugely): "We're going to die and rot in our graves, and that'll be it. Get used to the idea."

    Of course, I know Christian NTs, too. It depends on how you were raised, just like with any type. One thing I've noticed with religious NTs, though, is that they often believe that religion and science must compliment each other. Therefore, many Christian NTs aren't creationists. Those who are, though, would have logical arguments to back it up. (An excellent example of this is the poster above me - Erudur - whose perseverence and eloquence I respect immensely as of now.)

    One final thing: wasn't this thread created for data collecting, and not arguing over whose beliefs are more valid? As we all know from experience, arguing about religion doesn't get anyone anywhere. So... maybe we should all agree to disagree? Just an idea.
    Last edited by EJCC; 01-13-2009 at 01:35 AM. Reason: being obsessive, as usual
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #307
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    2,320

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    In short, if you go back far enough, you are forced to consider an unverifiable premise. Perhaps that is irrational. I'm not sure if MyCrofts definition of "rational" is a generally accepted one. He takes it a step further than the definitions I've read.
    That's definitely true. So my stance is "I don't know".

    This statement is as wrong as it is patronizing.
    This is your cue to cite some evidence.

  8. #308
    Member Headstrong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    75

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One argument that I've heard from one NT (ENTP? INTP?) is that God is an invention meant to comfort people who are afraid of death."
    I was still afraid of dying, even after believing in Christ for 10+ years. I'm not anymore, though. It's a silly fear, really...we're all going to pass on eventually. I think it's a combination of the uncertainty as to what happens afterwards, if anything, and how one is currently living their life.
    There are two types of people in this world, sheep and sharks. Be a shark. Sharks are winners and they don't look back 'cause they don't have necks. Necks are for sheep.

    Headstrong: You're learning the ways of...me!
    INTP Friend: Yay!
    INTP Friend: Wait....NOOOOO

    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who do not have it.
    -George Bernard Shaw

    Wise men talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
    -Plato

  9. #309
    Senior Member Samurai Drifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Additionally, there may be cosmologies (exluding God) that presuppose some event where some kind of nothingness separated into matter and anti-matter* and then "Big Banged" into what we see today.

    This cosmology also has an unverifiable premise.

    In short, if you go back far enough, you are forced to consider an unverifiable premise. Perhaps that is irrational. I'm not sure if MyCrofts definition of "rational" is a generally accepted one. He takes it a step further than the definitions I've read.

    I think it is important for all those with cosmologies exclusive of God to realize that they have no more rational a premise than those with cosmologies that include God.

    * anti-matter being another idea based on unverified conjecture
    Big Bang theory describes the expansion of matter from its original, condensed state. It does not make any effort to describe how or why this matter originally came into being. Currently this question is outside the realm of cosmology though that may not always be the case.

    Your problem, therefore, is not with modern cosmology or with Big Bang theory, but rather with a question that presently is unapproachable.

    This statement is as wrong as it is patronizing.
    Obviously the way in which a comment is made affects how correct it is.
    Hands in the air, it's a robbery.

  10. #310
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Drifter View Post
    Big Bang theory describes the expansion of matter from its original, condensed state.
    Its presumed, unverifiable, original, condensed state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Drifter View Post
    It does not make any effort...blah blah blah
    My carefully worded posts don't insinuate otherwise. You miss a lot by your sloppy reading of posts. Your flippant responses make you seem more stupid than you probably are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Drifter View Post
    Your problem, therefore, is not with modern cosmology or with Big Bang theory, but rather with a question that presently is unapproachable.
    Take a moment to look up the definition of "cosmology" to find out how you are misusing the term.

    On the "evidence" discussion, I'll refer to previous posts.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] NTs and time
    By Natrushka in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 01-25-2010, 02:56 PM
  2. [NT] NTs and controlling thoughts
    By Varelse in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-08-2007, 02:10 PM
  3. [NT] Berens' comments on NTs and conflict
    By rivercrow in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-13-2007, 05:05 PM
  4. [NT] NTs and Concentration
    By Varelse in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-23-2007, 01:17 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO