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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #171
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I was calling into question your patently false assertion that there is a "majority bias" against the existence of a deity by employing a technique known as "sarcasm".
    There seems to be a majority bias among biologists/anthropologists. Maybe not so much the hard sciences.

    Sarcasm only works if what you're calling into question is questionable.

    I'm intentionally pushing the "hard/soft" definition as a dig to biologists and anthropologists.

  2. #172
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    There seems to be a majority bias among biologists/anthropologists. Maybe not so much the hard sciences.

    Sarcasm only works if what you're calling into question is questionable.

    I'm intentionally pushing the "hard/soft" definition as a dig to biologists and anthropologists.
    You quoted einstein, there's newton also for example. And so on. Not all scientists are atheists.
    The bias would rather be towards ID strong supporters. I doubt any of them isn't religious.

    But I'm not sure you can call it a bias anyway. Would you say we are biased because we believe that light has absolute speed? Yes and No. There is dogma in every activity of the human life for we can't always doubt everything. It isn't efficient.

    For example: can you always doubt if earth gravity won't suddently fail you or crush you \ your car will start if you turn the key (...).
    The human mind classifies things to save up computing power and improve reaction time in daily activities.

    But even the dogma of science never stopped it from kicking bad theories out and allowing better ones in.
    On the other hand religion keeps throwing a quasi identitical theory at us for now 5000 thousand years or more, only adjusting itself when the ideas clearly become unsupportable in its time.
    ID is another example of the same idea adapting to its time. Therefore the bias that led people to support the same undisprovable idea despite continuous refutation of the facts of religious texts and beliefs it uses as an historical and cultural base is clearly infinitely stronger than scientific dogma.

    But experience has taught us that improving on the same idea has never been the way to go if we wanted a true understanding of the universe.


    I don't think ID has any other reason to be than the human need to classify things into rigid and more efficient categories for daily use. It both answers their fears about death\the unknown and the lack of control they have on the universe while giving a ready to use answer for everything.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #173
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    ...The bias would rather be towards ID strong supporters. I doubt any of them isn't religious...

    ...But even the dogma of science never stopped it from kicking bad theories out and allowing better ones in.

    ...But experience has taught us that improving on the same idea has never been the way to go if we wanted a true understanding of the universe.
    1-ID proponents are probably more represented by theism, but there are also agnostics. As far as religion, many theists are not religeous. Some just push back the "origins of life" question by postulating that the earth was seeded with DNA by aliens.

    2-The dogma of science (the scientific establishment) always seems to slow down acceptance of new ideas by the resistance of the orthodoxy.

    3-Hurray! I found a point of agreement with you EcK.

    BTW, did you read the article I linked? Its not that long, and addresses a number of misconceptions regarding darwinism that you keep embracing. Well, that you seem to keep embracing.

  4. #174
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    I'm going out now so maybe i'll answer later just one thing:
    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    BTW, did you read the article I linked? Its not that long, and addresses a number of misconceptions regarding darwinism that you keep embracing. Well, that you seem to keep embracing.
    I don't know what sort of mistakes you think I embrace. But I'd rather lean towards a misunderstanding.
    The fama says that the school of plato had a plate where you could read: 'let noone who is ignorant of mathematics enter here'
    I'd simply like to say you're understanding of basic statistics seems really flawed. I'll use the example of the guy trying to jump to the moon for example.
    Also, I undisbelieve you said something about the fact that darwin's evolution didn't apply before what we call biological life. But alot of scientists think evolution started before life emerged. I will document it later if you're interested.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #175
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'm going out now so maybe i'll answer later just one thing:


    I don't know what sort of mistakes you think I embrace. But I'd rather lean towards a misunderstanding.
    The fama says that the school of plato had a plate where you could read: 'let noone who is ignorant of mathematics enter here'
    I'd simply like to say you're understanding of basic statistics seems really flawed. I'll use the example of the guy trying to jump to the moon for example.
    Also, I undisbelieve you said something about the fact that darwin's evolution didn't apply before what we call biological life. But alot of scientists think evolution started before life emerged. I will document it later if you're interested.
    Your are misreading at least part of what I've been saying, including the referenced analogy. I'm not sure how to rectify that.

  6. #176
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Your are misreading at least part of what I've been saying, including the referenced analogy. I'm not sure how to rectify that.
    nevermind that then, i'm not trying to start fights here. I just noticed alot of the examples given by ID supporters show a really weak understanding or at least understimating of the effects large numbers and statistics can have.

    ps: what am i not getting ? (curious)
    pss: U did also misread most of what I said intepreting it as simply angry ranting.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #177
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Erudur - I'm going to read the linked article now.

    Re: majority bias - I assumed, when you first said it, that you were talking about the human population as a whole and not just (certain flavours of) scientists. If it had been the former I think the bias is definitely *towards* theism.

    MyCroft - I'm not a scientist, and my practical knowledge here is definitely limited by that, so thanks for pointing out what you did.

  8. #178
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Re: majority bias - I assumed, when you first said it, that you were talking about the human population as a whole and not just (certain flavours of) scientists. If it had been the former I think the bias is definitely *towards* theism.
    The wording was ambiguous; given Erudur's "us versus the world" approach to belief, I read into it the same meaning as you did, Kangirl.

    MyCroft - I'm not a scientist, and my practical knowledge here is definitely limited by that, so thanks for pointing out what you did.
    I'm glad to be of service, but I would also warn against developing the mentality that you need to be an expert in every given field to have common sense and to be able to arrive at rational conclusions. This is the mentality the "no one can ever really know anything!" faction feeds off of.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  9. #179
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Just to go on record as admitting mistakes - my wording was ambiguous.

    For the record, nearly everything I wrote was confined to the origins of life/darwinism/ID arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ... "us versus the world" approach ...
    Mycroft - you seem a bit snarky. The comments were "ID versus the Darwinist Orthodoxy" rather than "us/world." And it seems to be a pretty nasty exchange. Lots of straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks. Plus I don't feel qualified to claim myself as an ID representative in any broad sense. So I don't claim to be one of the "us."

  10. #180
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    There seems to be a majority bias among biologists/anthropologists. Maybe not so much the hard sciences.

    I'm intentionally pushing the "hard/soft" definition as a dig to biologists and anthropologists.
    If we're talking about life and the dependence of god on life, why would we base our opinion on the opinions of physicists or other experts in fields unrelated to the one we are talking about?


    P.S. About the gaps, science isn't finished, of course we don't know everything. The problem in your viewpoint is that you have the thought pattern that is goes like this "There are holes in theory A, so theory B is automatically correct." This is not a valid argument for theory B, because it does not prove anything about theory B's validity.

    P.P.S. Define "Soft" / "Hard" science.

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