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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #161
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    I agree that the existance of god cannot be proven by science. And ID does not claim to do so. It confronts the assumption by darwinists that their theory is proof. It is not. And its flaws are beginning to show.

    Long before ID was given a name, I ran across a book by a molecular biologist (and self proclaimed agnostic) titled "Evolution, a theory in crisis." This guy may not be an ID proponent. His point was that darwinism didn't work when you look at the basic building blocks of life.

    He saw "distances" between different steps in the evolutionary process that could not statistically be traversed. Hence the jumping to the moon analogy. Many of the "steps" assumed in darwinism have 0% chance of occurring.

    I watched an ID debate where the darwinist was talking about how fruit fly dna was manipulated to "turn off" sections of code that changed the number of legs or wings of the fruit fly. The ID proponent's point was that while mutations and natural selection can explain the switching on or off of sections of dna code, they cannot explain the existence of the code itself. Its kind of like wind and wave action can remove a turret on a sand castle or thow up sand against a wall, but they cannot build the castle. The castle can only come about by an intelligent and directed process.
    It's true that there are certain stages in the progression from chemicals to life that science cannot presently account for. (And, I will mention as a side note, are outside the scope of evolutionary theory.) Hence there is dissent. Your so-called "ID scientists" are one variety of this dissent.

    You are making a classic logical error:

    There is something scientists can't presently explain!
    Therefore, God exists.


    By the by, your line of "reasoning" has a name.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  2. #162
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    As an aside, I would be mightily impressed if, occasionally, the NT believers on this board took it upon themselves to point out these logical inconsistencies, then, perhaps, explaining how they have taken the fallacies into account in formulating their respective world views, rather than always leaving we atheist-leaning-agnostics to do the work.

    Just sayin'.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #163
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    As an aside, I would be mightily impressed if, occasionally, the NT believers on this board took it upon themselves to point out these logical inconsistencies, then, perhaps, explaining how they have taken the fallacies into account in formulating their respective world views, rather than always leaving we atheist-leaning-agnostics to do the work.

    Just sayin'.
    Just agreein'. (I identified myself as an agnostic earlier in the thread...I don't want to be mistaken for a believer if I haven't been clear)

    Erudur, I see no real support for your argument that Darwinism is fading in credibility. If anything, it seems to be the other way around. A book or a quote from someone who agrees with you is proof of nothing. Can you give me the name of a serious (and taken seriously by the scientific community) scientist who argues that Darwinism is incorrect? Other than 'God did it' are there any other theories? Preferably backed by solid science? What is the book you mentioned? I'd be interested in reading it if I can confirm it's not written by someone with an agenda.

    Are there gaps in the fossil record? Yes. Is this to be expected? Also yes. We haven't quite yet excavated the entire planet! Do these gaps somehow mean God exists? I don't see how they do.

  4. #164
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Are there gaps in the fossil record? Yes. Is this to be expected? Also yes. We haven't quite yet excavated the entire planet! Do these gaps somehow mean God exists? I don't see how they do.
    Be careful. You're falling into the common trap of believing that evolutionary theory and the process by which chemicals gave way to life are the same field. Evolutionary theory starts where life has already come into being.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #165
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    You are making a classic logical error:

    There is something scientists can't presently explain!
    Therefore, God exists.
    I agree that is a logical error, and did not intend to leave the impression that I was making it.

    In my personal journey I have come to the conclusion that God exists, but I do not believe that ID (as compelling as I find it) proves that.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Erudur, I see no real support for your argument that Darwinism is fading in credibility...
    Check out the link I posted early in the Eck dialogue.

    Scoop: Mazur: Altenberg! The Woodstock of Evolution?

    Here's a snippet:

    "What it amounts to is a gathering of 16 biologists and philosophers of rock star stature let's call them "the Altenberg 16" who recognize that the theory of evolution which most practicing biologists accept and which is taught in classrooms today, is inadequate in explaining our existence. It's pre the discovery of DNA, lacks a theory for body form and does not accomodate "other" new phenomena. So the theory Charles Darwin gave us, which was dusted off and repackaged 70 years ago, seems about to be reborn as the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis.""

    Now I am guessing that I will probably still take issue with the new direction they end up going, because I am guessing it will still overlay the majority bias that there is no intelligent designer behind life. I still found the article fascinating, and this eventuality was expected by all the non-darwinists out there with an interest in this subject.

  7. #167
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    ...because I am guessing it will still overlay the majority bias that there is no intelligent designer behind life.
    ...are we inhabitants of the same planet?

    (I'll also point out that, thus far, the only basis for your beliefs you've provided is a textbook argument from incredulity.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  8. #168
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ...are we inhabitants of the same planet?
    I don't understand your question?

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    I don't understand your question?
    I was calling into question your patently false assertion that there is a "majority bias" against the existence of a deity by employing a technique known as "sarcasm".
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #170
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I was calling into question your patently false assertion that there is a "majority bias" against the existence of a deity by employing a technique known as "sarcasm".
    There seems to be a majority bias among biologists/anthropologists. Maybe not so much the hard sciences.

    Sarcasm only works if what you're calling into question is questionable.

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