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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #131
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I agree to a certain extent. But I still think people are just too forgiving towards religion.
    About great philosophers and so on, let's pick a famous example, Descartes.
    The man tried so hard to include religion in his theories that the forementioned theories just didn't make any sense at all. One of the main reason descartes is still remembered as a philospher and not a mathematician is probably because he shares the same absurd 'intuitions' with the common people.
    When you say intelligent design do you mean they are not being dogmatic ?
    I could pretty much discard any argument given by the 'intelligent design' "scientists". And I'm no physicist nor a biologist.
    Eck you are arrogant. But so far nothing you've written indicates that you have any reason to be. You come across as whiny and ignorant. Though I can wholeheartedly agree that you clearly are no physicist nor biologist.

    An atheist thinks its foolish to believe that a divine being created the world.

    A theist thinks its foolish to believe that the world around them and their own pondering, thinking, creating experience all came about by unguided chance.

    There are just too many leaps -- matter coming into existence or always existing.

    Matter somehow transitioning from inorganic forms to organic forms.

    Organic substances spontaneously transitioning to something definable as life.

    Simple life forms transitioning to more and more complex life forms resulting in the complexity and order that we see today when all measurable laws indicate a transition from order to disorder (entropy).

  2. #132
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    God is a spirit, eternal, infinite, and unchanging in being, wisdom, power, justice, goodness, holiness, and truth.

    God is a higher power relative to me. God is the highest power relative to all. God is eternal; were he not, he would be created, and his creator would be higher than him. God is the only eternal; were there more than one, or if all were eternal, he would not be highest. Because not all is eternal, at least some is temporal, and that which is temporal was brought into being by God. Therefore, God is the eternal creator.

    The nature of a being is revealed by what a being does. God creates and rules in his creation; thus, to understand the natures of things created is to understand the nature of God. Man as a rational animal created in the image of God is to use his reason to make distinctions between things in order to understand and name the creation in order to make known the glory of God revealed in the creation.

    No thing is more interesting than God.
    You have every right to believe what you believe, Owl, and I have no interest in trying to convince you you're wrong (you might be right!), but in the context of 'NT' types I find your post interesting in that it's presented as a statement of fact rather than a point of view in a debate. Aren't NTs supposed to be into debate and opening their minds to other views? I'm a noob, so maybe I'm wrong about that...just wondering!

  3. #133
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    A theist thinks its foolish to believe that the world around them and their own pondering, thinking, creating experience all came about by unguided chance.
    Do you mean they come to a conclusion about the universe and then make the 'proof' fit their views ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    There are just too many leaps -- matter coming into existence or always existing.
    And I'm being arrogant ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Matter somehow transitioning from inorganic forms to organic forms. Organic substances spontaneously transitioning to something definable as life.
    Now you've just proven you know nothing of biology or evolution. Thanks for discrediting yourself... You don't even try or are capable of understanding science yet you say it's wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Simple life forms transitioning to more and more complex life forms resulting in the complexity and order that we see today when all measurable laws indicate a transition from order to disorder (entropy).
    Ever heard about Charles Darwin? You might want to check a funny book called 'on the origin of species'. It has pictures!!

    bottom line:
    Give me specific examples of what you define as 'an issue' for modern science.
    Then give me the theist's explanation.
    Saying science is wrong is not enough, you have to prove your theory actually works and has its' place in the universe.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #134
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=EcK;473056]
    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    And I'm being arrogant ?
    The very definition of arrogance is to speak, claiming knowledge or authority, about things you know nothing about. And through the muffled grunts around your foot in your mouth, you again demonstrate your arrogance.

    First of all, Darwin never addressed how life actually started from whatever preexisting form he believed it had. He also made several predictions of what the fossil record would eventually produce. His assumptions were made before an understanding of DNA and many other discoveries that contradict his theories and predictions.

    The orthodoxy is still having a hard time moving off the Darwin path to consider the science of the last several decades, but they are beginning to make their way there.

    Scoop: Mazur: Altenberg! The Woodstock of Evolution?

    And before you go off all smug with a quote or two from this article (if you are actually patient and smart enough to take the time to read it), realize that these "leading" biologists have a hard time agreeing with each other. i.e. there is no consensus among the top biologists concerning the origins of life.

  5. #135
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Rah, I know darwin has nothing to do with the origins of life, that's why i talked about biology and I thought you might understand it included, in this context, organic chemistry.
    So far, nobody has found an element that could disprove evolution and the theories on the creation of organic chemistry on the primitive earth that then led to the development of life are quite solid.
    Life never got there by chance, we both agree on that. But there's a difference between large numbers and chemistry and explaining one unlikely event with the intervention of an even less likely creator.

    Give me some example, I will refute it. Please go on. You're the one presenting a largely biased and unscientific theory as scientific. I know that centuries of religious hegemony is something one gets used to but still. Fishy arguments showing a deep unability to understand modern science is not what I call a thrilling debate.

    PS: Yes I am arrogant, but this has nothing to do with the topic. And talking about arrogance, everything religion say gets refuted, one fact after another yet religious leaders and followers keep saying they were right all this time and decide what in their books has to be considered as fact or fiction.

    I dont know what are your beliefs on that point.
    I'm just curious, do you believe in the garden of eden story ?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #136
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Once you get over your
    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    deep unability to understand modern science.
    maybe we can have a thrilling debate.

    Uh, its "inability" not "unability."

    Please, take your foot out of your mouth. I can hardly hear you over the mumbling.

  7. #137
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Once you get over your

    maybe we can have a thrilling debate.

    Uh, its "inability" not "unability."

    Please, take your foot out of your mouth. I can hardly hear you over the mumbling.
    I'm sorry for not perfectly mastering all of the three languages I speak fluently.
    I'm just saying your arguments are VERY weak and that i'm still waiting for some solid arguments. I did ask you for specific examples i could refute, you didn't give me any and just kept saying i was arrogant. Which as I said has nothing to do with the debate but with my personality. Whenever I give an argument you don't ever answer it and start by repeating I'm being a mean person and that i hurted your precious feelings. Get over it...

    I'm open to a real debate. I mean it. But you're angry and i'm stubborn, which doesn't make communication easy.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #138
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    There are just too many leaps -- matter coming into existence or always existing.
    There are the same amount of leaps if you believe in God. So...God created matter. What created God? Same question.

    Matter somehow transitioning from inorganic forms to organic forms.
    Lol. You know we made up the word "organic" right? Your argument reminds me of this --

    Someone rolls five dice and gets a 4,1,3,5,4. Then they say, "OMG there was only a 1/7776 chance that I got this result (.01% chance)! Wow, holy crap, how lucky!

    SOMETHING had to happen. No matter what it was, you'd call it too lucky for chance.

    Organic substances spontaneously transitioning to something definable as life.
    Again, this is not like an off->on type of thing. It's not like one second something didn't fit into the life category and the next second it did.

    Have you heard of prototype or exemplar theories of categorization? We've gotten past the point where we're defining categories by necessary and sufficient conditions.

    Simple life forms transitioning to more and more complex life forms resulting in the complexity and order that we see today when all measurable laws indicate a transition from order to disorder (entropy).
    Holy crap -- I flipped a coin 10 times and got a result that I only had a 1/(2^10) chance of getting!

  9. #139
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    What do NTs think of God, and how do they relate to Him ?
    Three Christian-culture NTs I know admit either indifference or little understanding of what they call "religion."

    Is it possible for an NT to be interested in God ?
    Yes, it's possible.
    I am very interested in God, and have been ever since I was young.

  10. #140
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Yes, it's possible.
    I am very interested in God, and have been ever since I was young.
    Ever heard about memes? Just an idea

    To evan: When you say life emerged by chance, It's as a matter of fact more related to large numbers. You had "zillions" of chemical reactions for millions of years in a hot, energy filled and less chemically aggressive oxygenless atmosphere. Experiments have shown that it only took a few hours to create numerous amino acids from basic elements in such an environment.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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