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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #111
    Senior Member Fuent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I'm totally stealing this argument.
    Ok, just feed it twice a day and give it it's pill in the afternoon.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    INTP... I think not.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Ow yeah, I forgot, the good and benevolant god will send me to hell for using my brain, which "he" gave me. ...
    I surely hope what you've written to this point isn't what you mean by "using your brain." Seriously, you seem to have a lot of emotion invested in your rants. That doesn't seem to be the fruit of thoughtful ponderings.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yes, freedom of speech is bad and logical arguments are to be dismessed as unworthy of ur presence. I'm sorry if your freaky love to control things and people can't be fullfilled by 1 line ad hominem attacks. (see if it had 2 lines, that 'd be another story)

    Eat a cookie, those things happen
    Wow. It gets even better. Eck misuses the term "ad hominem attack" (unless he feels "non-believer" is pejorative) while launching his own ad hominem attack with terms like "freaky love" and "control."

    As an INTJ, I love the irony.

  4. #114
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    I'm an INTJ and I believe in God, and Christ. Apparently according to most of the comments, that must be impossible, but actually I was a Christian before I discovered I was an INTJ - go figure...

    anyway, it is possible. Though mind you, I do read relentlessly and do not go to church (because they're nuts and ignorant scholastically imho).

    I have also read the Qua'ran, the Torah and bothered to learn enough Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic to actually bother checking what I believe. I also have found that much of what is taught as religion, or Christianity is so far from the actual truth of all the documented manuscripts (of which there are 15,000) that to only draw from 66 books, would be foolish.

    I haven't lost my love for true history, nor astronomy, or histrionics. I still love all the disciplines.

    In all truth, I have found that clarity was less effort to understand and answers made more sense after I became a Christian, though I've also had what could be described as insanely metaphysical experiences, NOT under the influence of any foreign radical, at the time of those events.

    So either there is a God, or I'm completely insane. And I'm not insane... though then again, anyone who thinks they're crazy isn't and anyone who doesn't must be... heh...

    so who knows right?

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastMohican View Post
    Pascal's wager seems pretty silly when you consider two things: it could be applied to countless religions, and you do have something to lose: your lifetime. If you turn out to be wrong, then you have wasted precious time worshipping a nonexistent God and trying to follow the moral restrictions of a useless book.
    this is an interesting statement. Now, I can understand how it would be and is perceived as "worship" but what if it isn't worship? What if it's just realization and communication?

    I'm an INTJ and a Christian. That's almost a contradiction in terms, however, as an INTJ I would need unmitigated proof to validate that type of statement. And, as analytical as I am, I assure you, I didn't just write off the few experiences as this or that. I dug. I searched. I researched, and I checked.

    Now, if i were to apply my experiences to the simplicity of the 66 books which make up the bible, then yup... I'd have to get myself checked, or find out if perhaps I had some form of chemical imbalance.

    However, I dug deeper than those books. I discovered that there are 15,000 manuscripts alone just to validate the Qua'ran, the Torah, the bible, as well as about 5 other books read by the Jews. I also discovered that there are a slew of monotheistic religions that predate Christianity which have the same foundations, all bound on the same concepts.

    So in regards to your statement. Sure. When it comes to your run of the mill Christian parrot who can squawk out verse this and chapter that, and book the other... absolutely, they're bound by their faith and follow a rigid set of rules which in truth - do not actually exist, and most of which were initiated after the council of Nicene prior to Constantine's death. Oh, he died a worshiper of Osiris and was baptized post mortum, in case you're curious.

    However me? Nope. I don't have any trouble having a beer. I don't feel guilty or ashamed because I desire my girl friend, and I don't care at all if anyone else wants to get stoned, drunk or sleep around. Has nothing to do with me or my life, or my faith.

    I also don't have this ridiculous Amway mentality that requires me to "win souls for the kingdom" because that isn't written anywhere in any book. It's an idea that is fully and completely man made.

    So I know for me, I'm not wasting my life. I still make choices based upon the same personal convictions, without finding that I have to step on anyone's free will or ability to destroy themselves, with their own random choices.

    As a matter of fact, I have fantastic debates on God (not religion, because I can't debate what I do not support), with both of my business partners.

    They're enlightening, and entertaining, and neither of my business partners need to hear me say, "this book that chapter, and that verse through this verse" ever because the difference between worship, and interactive relationship is communication, and it relieves any and all of that elitist arrogance, which religion breeds.

    cheers~!

  6. #116
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    This is a refutation of Pascal's Wager that I particularly like:

    Ebon Musings: A Flip of the Coin

  7. #117
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Straight up agnostic here. My opinion on the god/no god question is that I simply have no way of knowing.

    An atheist ex of mine, when we discussed this, used to ask me "do you believe in unicorns"? (point being, there is no proof of the existence of unicorns, as there is no proof of god, so how could I be anything other than atheist, if I also considered myself a rational/logical person) It's hard to explain this, and if pushed for an answer I would say that no, of course I don't believe in unicorns. But do I believe there are things we don't yet, or can't know? Do I believe in the possibility of mystery? Might there be unicorns in some other dimension, on some other planet etc.? Yes to all those questions.

    No unicorns in my backyard that I can observe with my 5 senses. No god, either. But could there be, somewhere or somehow? Sure. I just can't know or say for sure! Hence, agnosticism.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Tayshaun's Avatar
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    Unifying trend among NTs: If God exists, immanent rather than transcendent.

    Leaning #1: Atheism Sheer materialism and empiricism. No immanence and no transcendence.

    Leaning #2: Naturalistic Pantheism. God is the substance in the natural chain of events. Everything in Nature obeys universal laws. God=Laws of Nature, therefore all is God. I might not be expressing this well (SolitaryWalker can correct me considering he is much more learned about Spinoza and so on).

    Leaning #3: Deism The main one before the 19th century. Rejection of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth, use of reason instead. God(s) is the creator but has no worry about human affairs. There is no direct communication (prayers are useless), but he exists nonetheless.

    Personally: atheist who can rationally accept the metaphysics of a pantheist.

  9. #119
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    There is no god.
    Religion was invented by cavemen who didn't understand what was going on around them, so they invented god.
    Now that we understand alot more about the world, religion is no longer required, and it has become like a straight jacket on human society, holding us back from growing into the future.
    Quite simply, religion should be abolished so we can move forward.

  10. #120
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    What do NTs think of God, and how do they relate to Him ?
    Three Christian-culture NTs I know admit either indifference or little understanding of what they call "religion."

    Is it possible for an NT to be interested in God ?
    God is a spirit, eternal, infinite, and unchanging in being, wisdom, power, justice, goodness, holiness, and truth.

    God is a higher power relative to me. God is the highest power relative to all. God is eternal; were he not, he would be created, and his creator would be higher than him. God is the only eternal; were there more than one, or if all were eternal, he would not be highest. Because not all is eternal, at least some is temporal, and that which is temporal was brought into being by God. Therefore, God is the eternal creator.

    The nature of a being is revealed by what a being does. God creates and rules in his creation; thus, to understand the natures of things created is to understand the nature of God. Man as a rational animal created in the image of God is to use his reason to make distinctions between things in order to understand and name the creation in order to make known the glory of God revealed in the creation.

    No thing is more interesting than God.

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