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Thread: NTs and God

  1. #101
    Senior Member Fuent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastMohican View Post
    Pascal's wager seems pretty silly when you consider two things: it could be applied to countless religions, and you do have something to lose: your lifetime. If you turn out to be wrong, then you have wasted precious time worshipping a nonexistent God and trying to follow the moral restrictions of a useless book.
    yes.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    INTP... I think not.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Fuent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Not to mention if God does in fact exist, he probably won't be impressed by the fact that you approached faith in Him like a poker wager.
    YES.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    INTP... I think not.

  3. #103
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Personally, I have more than enough reason to hate religion: It has bitten me in the ass far too many times for my welfare. I don't know why I don't hate God, hate religion, and hate religious people. But for some reason, I still have some sort of "faith" and find it compatibility with my rationality. It isn't fundamentalist Christianity, but it's still there.
    Faith is defined by its being irrational. Do you conceive of your faith and your ration as two separate "substances" which are able to coexist in your mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    This is essentially why I (and most people) believe in science. It works and it's improved my quality of life. In fact whether or not something works is the most objective type of proof. Anything else is simply an attempt to elaborate on why something works.
    This anthropocentric view you have; this way that you can't separate the subjective experience of psychological effects from the objective and scientific - it makes me nuts.

    How is it that you can genuinely conceive of "if I apply the following verified laws of physics in such-and-such a manner it will have the following empirically verifiable real-world outcome" and "if I do the following it will make me feel nice" as being one and the same?

    Admittedly, both of the preceding examples fall under the umbrella of the English term "works", but this is what comes of the Ti-user's over-reliance on "definitions".

    Edit: Just to quicken the proceedings, I'll save you the typing:

    "But my improving my life is an objective real-world effect!"

    Fine. But, as you have yourself noted, this belief system "works" in the same sense that drugs or, to cite another secular example, therapy will, hence it is, again, no proof that a God exists. (I also can't help but note that the only thing you've offered support for in your posts until now is the belief in faith; I perhaps erred in jumping to the conclusion that you wouldn't be the type to simply believe in the act of believing in a thing which likely doesn't exist.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #104
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    This anthropocentric view you have; this way that you can't separate the subjective experience of psychological effects from the objective and scientific - it makes me nuts.

    How is it that you can genuinely conceive of "if I apply the following verified laws of physics in such-and-such a manner it will have the following empirically verifiable real-world outcome" and "if I do the following it will make me feel nice" as being one and the same?

    Admittedly, both of the preceding examples fall under the umbrella of the English term "works", but this is what comes of the Ti-user's over-reliance on "definitions".
    Mycroft,

    Have you ever read Paul Feyerabend and his theory of "epistemological anarchism"?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  5. #105
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuent View Post
    Some people never grow out of the phase where they have imaginary friends. It doesn't sound as weird when you call it God. ...

    I'm totally stealing this argument.

  6. #106
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Thanks for this insight.
    How can you speak about God with an NT ?
    Well, we aren't exactly known for our tact.

    The fact is, unfortunately, that you probably can't without admitting as a first premise that your entire belief system is fundamentally irrational, at which point the NT feels he has already won. (Yes, it's a game/competition. It always is.) You can try to debate God rationally with him/her, if you want. You'll lose. He will likely dismiss you with some kind of, "Well sure, if you admit that it's totally irrational then go ahead and believe whatever you want!"

    Some people don't require rational/empirical evidence to make decisions. As an NT myself I must confess I am naturally rather irritated with this tendency, but I think NTs in general would do well to remember that it's fundamentally irrational to expect everyone to behave rationally.

    Since NTs are so naturally self-righteous about their logical/analytical abilities, the absolute worst thing you can do is try to beat the NT at his own game--DO NOT engage him in rational battle. Instead, try to appeal to his F side--this may sound silly, but many NTs that I know are perfectly willing to exercise their F functions when allowed to Be Right. You must understand that for all their rational objectivity, many younger/less mature NTs (especially the ENTs) have an irrational, emotional attachment to Being Right. It's in their blood, and it takes a long time with a lot of practice and conditioning to control that NT urge to verbally annihilate the competition, just for sport.

    F'rinstance, I've got an INTP friend who plays poker very seriously at a fairly high skill level. I've played poker for a long time too, but I don't have the same level of experience he does, and so this particular game (and game theory in general) are a couple of his NT "areas of authority." Any time we have a dispute about poker strategy, if I don't quickly back down and openly admit that he is correct, he gets very pissy very quickly and productive conversation grinds to a halt. I find that I can learn more from him by simply letting him think he's right in every strategy discussion and phrasing my questions from the vantage point of a lesser being seeking his wisdom and guidance. Almost everyone of any type is naturally flattered when you ask for his opinion or advice, and NTs loooove to talk about their interests.

    The tragic irony about us, however, is how irrational we become in the placement of our priorities when we perceive ANYTHING remotely resembling a challenge to our logical thinking abilities. Suddenly we feel threatened--logic is the only thing I'm really GOOD at; if I let them take that away it would lead to all sorts of emotional problems and insecurities. FIGHT TO THE DEATH IT IS!

    We know we can win just about any argument we want with our S friends (and most of our NF friends, even), but part of growing up into a mature NT is learning when to have the discipline to choose not to win. We are not typically so good at picking our battles ^_^

    Here's what I would say:

    "Listen, I know that my beliefs are irrational, and I respect that you can't support them. But please allow me to practice them in peace, as they are very important to me emotionally."

    Come right out and admit, whether or not you actually believe it, that you are being irrational. This allows the NT to reassure himself that he is still the champion of the rational debate arena for today, and it makes him much more approachable and emotionally accessible.

  7. #107
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    wise post Simulated. : )

    Personally, as hard as It is to believe, I love to learn and tell people that yeah, I dont know and I'm wrong.
    But religion is really my 'berserk' spot when it comes to arguing. Because it's BOTH irrational and a traditional and often unquestionned norme.
    My brain is basically wired to fight it to the death and beyond. (like TNT wired to my dead body or something charming like that)

    ps: no i'm not apologizing, i'm just stating a few facts
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #108
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yes not trying to make any sensible arguments yet calling those others proposed as originating from 'insecure flamers' makes you come out as a genius.
    Reread the OP. It was a request for individual opinions on the existence of God, not an invitation for non-believers to pester believers.

  9. #109
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Reread the OP. It was a request for individual opinions on the existence of God, not an invitation for non-believers to pester believers.
    Yes, freedom of speech is bad and logical arguments are to be dismessed as unworthy of ur presence. I'm sorry if your freaky love to control things and people can't be fullfilled by 1 line ad hominem attacks. (see if it had 2 lines, that 'd be another story)

    Eat a cookie, those things happen
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #110
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yes, freedom of speech is bad and logical arguments are to be dismessed as unworthy of ur presence. I'm sorry if your freaky love to control things and people can't be fullfilled by 1 line ad hominem attacks. (see if it had 2 lines, that 'd be another story)

    Eat a cookie, those things happen
    LOL so rude... and yet--the avatar is so silly and cute and unassuming... I don't even feel bothered. Well done

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