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  1. #61
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    And if people don't follow your benevolent advice you just eat them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    Like candy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bougal View Post
    I love candy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    Nothing better than a big bowl of candy.
    Heheh. well. Uh. what's a nice joke between friends, right?

    (sidesteps out of room.)

  2. #62
    Senior Member groovejet02's Avatar
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    If people tell you you are manipulative, it would be wise to ask them honestly HOW exactly you are manipulative. Just because common consensus says that ENTJs are least likely to be manipulative doesn't mean you should automatically escape blame.

  3. #63
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    Get an ENTJ who knows something about Fe in terms of social rules/roles and give-and-take, and you have someone who has the capacity to pretty much manipulate and control anything and anyone..

  4. #64
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Stereotypes are fun. Everything that's needed to be said has been said in the first few pages, no you aren't. You're some of the least manipulative people I've been around RL and on the net. I think anyone can be manipulative when they really REALLY need to achieve a goal, this may be where the stereotype comes from, since you guys have a good amount of goals from what I've observed.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Overall, the ENTJs I know are considered by most people to be more manipulative on average than other types.
    this is because the ENTPs never get caught.
    anyway ENTJs are very manipulative. their source of manipulative power comes from their personal power gained or expressed. they have a sense of i know what i am doing is ryt. if you resist me that means you are dumb. so a person who feels inferior(and ENTJs unconsciously make a lot of people feel that way) will do what a ENTJ will tell you to do, against their will.

    on the other hand an INFJ( i am referring to you EVAN) would make you feel as if you are doing the right thing by doing what he tells you cus it's the right thing to do in a humane point of view. which is totaly different from ENTJs manipulation. ENTJs depend of logic and 'who dare resist me' kind of attitude.

    these two methods are like the two different sides of the same coin. one can never get heads or tails at the same time.

    even ESTPs are very manipulative. but their manipulation is for short term gain. and it should be mentioned that most of the time ESTPs twist the facts WITHOUT KNOWING IT.

    anyway i don't believe that all types are capable of manipulation. it is not as easy as it sounds and needs careful planing and far reaching vision. few types are capable of making a plan and thinking whether the person who needs to be manipulated could be tricked and whether that person will see more benefits than loses. that i guess is a ENTJ frame of mind. there are 100s of points to be added.
    sounds esy right? i don't think so.

    anyway how could anyone talk about manipulation without talking about ENTPs. well let me put it this way - they are coins which could change their sides whenever they want to.

  6. #66
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravana View Post
    this is because the ENTPs never get caught.
    anyway ENTJs are very manipulative. their source of manipulative power comes from their personal power gained or expressed. they have a sense of i know what i am doing is ryt. if you resist me that means you are dumb. so a person who feels inferior(and ENTJs unconsciously make a lot of people feel that way) will do what a ENTJ will tell you to do, against their will.

    on the other hand an INFJ( i am referring to you EVAN) would make you feel as if you are doing the right thing by doing what he tells you cus it's the right thing to do in a humane point of view. which is totaly different from ENTJs manipulation. ENTJs depend of logic and 'who dare resist me' kind of attitude.

    these two methods are like the two different sides of the same coin. one can never get heads or tails at the same time.

    even ESTPs are very manipulative. but their manipulation is for short term gain. and it should be mentioned that most of the time ESTPs twist the facts WITHOUT KNOWING IT.

    anyway i don't believe that all types are capable of manipulation. it is not as easy as it sounds and needs careful planing and far reaching vision. few types are capable of making a plan and thinking whether the person who needs to be manipulated could be tricked and whether that person will see more benefits than loses. that i guess is a ENTJ frame of mind. there are 100s of points to be added.
    sounds esy right? i don't think so.

    anyway how could anyone talk about manipulation without talking about ENTPs. well let me put it this way - they are coins which could change their sides whenever they want to.
    I agree. ENTPs are probably just as "manipulative" (whatever that means) as ENTJs, if not more. And INFJs have the same kind of power, although since they're introverted, they're probably less interested in external results.

    Check out the "who's more manipulative: INFJ or ENTP?" thread; there's some good stuff in there.

    Personal anecdote: my ex-girlfriend (ENTP) and I got in a silly argument about who is more manipulative (with each of us wanting to be the more manipulative one for some reason). We decided to ask our mutual friend (an ENFP) who knows both of us extremely well what she thought. She said I was more manipulative -- my ex's strategy (manipulating people all the time) actually works to her disadvantage because people are on the lookout for it. Whereas I'm pretty good at hiding it in some sort of moral issue, and I even believe myself in the moment. I'm also pretty good as using people/my reputation as a source of power.


    Anyway, though, as I said earlier in this thread, this isn't really the sort of thing that is well measured in MBTI terms. Unless someone wants to define manipulation in a very narrow way.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplacesyoullgo View Post
    Your gut feelings, please. Are ENTJs more manipulative than any other type?

    I'm ENTJ (moderately weak E, very strong N) and have been accused of being manipulative a handful of times in my life - but I wasn't consciously trying to manipulate anyone.
    My future mother-in-law is great, but I detect her attempting to manipulate me quite a bit, mostly just as a method of convincing me that she is correct about a reason for something. It's not a problem.

    I can provide examples.

  8. #68
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    My feeling is that entj are more about fulfilling goals than being literally 'people oriented'. they are more likely to get things done because they are efficient at getting results and are assertive. Most people will bend when facing those two traits. So yes I'm sure they can be manipulative but not the way a more people oriented person could be.

    Now what is 'manipulation'?
    From a behaviorist's perspective we all do it, we use positive and negative reinforcement, seek to understand what one can be drawn to and their avoidance strategies.
    So really, when you say an entj is 'manipulative' you're mainly saying that he's Te, and will seek to accomplish things. Since we're social animals, they have to understand how to get past resistance\get support.
    Some entjs could become manipulative by starting to see other people as a set of 'things they could have' thanks to Te (If i do that i get that) strategies.
    Now in average entjs are smarter than estj (i said average, do not burn me alive yet). A smart estj will probably be just as manipulative if not more because of the extra S.

    In the end we call manipulative people who are better at doing what we all do.
    Now the slave morality (read nietzsche, don't ask) taught us to often call it manipulation instead of people skill.

    Some people are naturally good in they're realtime interactions with people, other are naturally good at having a conceptual understanding of human behavior. Both are seen as good. So why should having both traits result in being 'manipulative'. (I'm thinking about the entp\infj are mean manipulators ramblings)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    Everyone wants to believe they are in control of their behavior. Often we forget that people are more than their MBTI. They are also a product of their environment, which has other individuals in it. Worse still we are wired to connect with each other to survive. Humans are, at the end of the day, pack animals.

    So simply having an effect on others' behavior doesn't make anybody manipulative in the negatively connotative sense. We all affect each other. And, we all have our place. ENTJs may be the most naturally driven type. We can see the larger picture, analyze the situation, create a plan, mobilize others to use their strengths, and track progress. This is why we given labels like "fieldmarshal" and "executive".

    In order for us to do all that, others need to trust us. And, undeveloped ENTJs do a poor job of building relationships of trust. Mainly, because respect works two ways. And we are insensitive to the point of being disrespectful to others. Also, the positions of leadership we want give us the capacity to consistently and disproportionately affect others. This again, reinforces how important trust is.

    So I guess my question is to the other types is, how can we build trust with you, while being who we are, and trying to achieve set objectives?
    R[a]ngl[e]r

  10. #70
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    So I guess my question is to the other types is, how can we build trust with you, while being who we are, and trying to achieve set objectives?
    Getting others to help you manipulate them... Dude, you're good








    (I'm kidding, just in case some started watching his napoleon avatar suspiciously)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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