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  1. #41
    ThatGirl
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    Didn't read the whole thread.




    There is a huge difference between strategy and manipulation.

  2. #42
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    There is a huge difference between strategy and manipulation.
    All of a sudden -- in my mind -- you can no longer pronounce 'r's.
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  3. #43
    ThatGirl
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    I don't know what that means.

    In real life mr Rs are hearty and robust

  4. #44
    Senior Member Chemgrl82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Didn't read the whole thread.

    There is a huge difference between strategy and manipulation.
    At first, I thought, yes... true. But actually, manipulation is a strategy.

    If you go to dictionary.com and pull up manipulation you'll see that some of it's definitions are as follows:

    1. Skillful or artful management.
    2. Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.
    3. Artful management; as, the manipulation of political bodies; sometimes a management or treatment for purposes of deception or fraud.

    The main point here would be that manipulation is given the negative connotation due to its association with deception.

    ENTJs are not deceptive. They (or I, at least) have no intention to deceive anyone, for any reason. If you know me, you know that I lay everything out on the table, including the good, bad and ugly. There are very rarely any issues that go unaddressed.

    When I say that we're manipulative, I don't mean in the deceptive sense, as much as we'll push people out of their gray areas (or at least give it a good go). We will manipulate with our words and actions (all the while being bluntly honest about our intentions) to get people to head in a definite direction, rather than riding the fence.

    It can be seen as artful management, strategy, manipulation.... whatever you'd like to call it.

    In the end, we're all susceptible to being manipulative. Any and all types can and probably will be at some point in their life. It's human nature to do and say things to get others to react in a way that's desirable for yourself.

    It's a matter of overcoming it. Even toddlers learn how to manipulate by throwing fits or saying things to get what they want. This is more of a maturity/personal growth issue, IMHO.

    Now, I'm sure there are plenty of types that are more prone to staying in a manipulative state than others, but to say ENTJs never are would be a falsehood. It's just a matter of how the actions are perceived. By the ENTJ, it can be seen as a strategy, but by an ESFJ it could be seen as cruelty.

    At the time I wrote that post, I had just come from an emotionally charged conversation in which I found myself being manipulative to get the other person to make a decision on what they wanted to do. While I had hoped it would be in my favor, I more or less realized I had created unnecessary drama that night by pushing the issue so hard just to get said person to pick a side. In turn, I recognized my actions, felt guilty, and realized that I was, in fact - being manipulative.

    It's not always fun to admit when it does happen. But if you can catch it, you can learn to grow and improve.

    At that point, I realized sometimes it's ok to be a little more laid back and sort of let things pan out. Gray isn't always bad if it helps you leave some options open.
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  5. #45
    ThatGirl
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    In my brain dictonary manipulative HAS to contain the deception factor to be classified as such. I think what you speak of is just good communicating skills that probably allows you to represent your thoughts clearly which tends to have a persuasive factor. I think its important to remember everyone makes their own decisions and that you are not directly involved in. Just because you speak doesn't mean they have to listen and if they do that's their choice. That choice is being made not from the lack of or witheld info but from you providing alternate info. That should alieviate any guilt complex.

  6. #46
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    In my brain dictonary manipulative HAS to contain the deception factor to be classified as such.
    Yes, I think you've touched it with a needle, there. This is the thing - manipulation is seen in the vernacular language (and therefore consciousness) as a BAD thing, connected with deceit and nefarious motives. In reality however, there are positive applications of both the word and the concept, but these are seldom seen. I think this stems largely from a lack of humility on the part of average people, an inability to confess when someone else actually does know better than them. It's not fashionable in an individualist society to trust others or allow them to work in our interests, so anyone who appears to be doing this is immediately suspected...
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    In my brain dictonary manipulative HAS to contain the deception factor to be classified as such. I think what you speak of is just good communicating skills that probably allows you to represent your thoughts clearly which tends to have a persuasive factor. I think its important to remember everyone makes their own decisions and that you are not directly involved in. Just because you speak doesn't mean they have to listen and if they do that's their choice. That choice is being made not from the lack of or witheld info but from you providing alternate info. That should alieviate any guilt complex.
    Same. Manipulation is fronting something that contradicts your true motives. This debate can go on forever if you stretch the meaning of manipulation to encompass all forms of persuasion and strategy. But manipulation is what it is...again back to the black or white, it's either manipulation or it's not.

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  8. #48
    ThatGirl
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    no, manipulation exists within false information. Otherwise it is just persuasion. I agree its black and white

  9. #49
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    you mean machievellian manipulation? i seen some ENTjs manipulate to gain an iupper hand in battle.

    A famous historical exmaple:

    Prior to the Battle of Red Cliffs, Cao Cao's troops and the Eastern Wu troops had a naval battle in which the outnumbered Wu troops defeated Cao Cao's troops. Cao Cao was furious with the defeat and after discussion with his generals, he realised that most of his troops came from Northern China and were not familiar with naval warfare. Cao Cao ordered Cai Mao and Zhang Yun, who both formerly served Liu Biao of Jingzhou, to construct a naval base for training the troops in naval warfare.

    Zhou Yu was disturbed by this and pondered how to get rid of the two generals, who were quite adept in naval warfare and were in charge of overseeing the training of Cao Cao's troops. Later, Jiang Gan offered to go to the Eastern Wu camp to persuade his old schoolmate Zhou Yu to defect to Wei. Cao Cao was overjoyed and sent Jiang Gan off to Eastern Wu.

    Zhou Yu heard of Jiang Gan's arrival and was delighted as he intended to use Jiang Gan to get rid of Cai Mao and Zhang Yun. When Jiang Gan arrived, Zhou Yu received him warmly and even asked him whether he was here to persuade him to serve Wei and if so, Jiang Gan would not be welcome. Jiang Gan denied and Zhou Yu threw a banquet in his honour as a reunion affair. Before the banquet, Zhou Yu handed his sword to Taishi Ci, giving him the authority to execute anyone who spoke of military affairs as the banquet was meant to be a joyous and relaxed occasion in which no affairs of the state would be discussed. Jiang Gan was afraid and decided not to speak to Zhou Yu about serving Wei yet.

    After the banquet, Zhou Yu pretended to be drunk and showed Jiang Gan round his camp. He showed Jiang Gan how full his granary was and the might of his troops. Jiang Gan was intimidated by the sight of the military prowess of the Wu troops and did not dare to speak anything regarding surrendering to Wei to Zhou Yu. Later, Zhou Yu wanted Jiang Gan to sleep with him on the same bed that night just like in their schooldays. Jiang Gan could not sleep peacefully and he crept out of bed that night to browse through Zhou Yu's documents.

    Jiang Gan found a letter addressed to Zhou Yu from Cai Mao and Zhang Yun, and he opened the letter quietly so as not to wake Zhou Yu up. Jiang Gan read the letter and was shocked when he found out that Cai Mao and Zhang Yun were planning to kill Cao Cao and defect to Eastern Wu. Jiang Gan was happy that although he did not manage to complete his mission (to persuade Zhou Yu to join Cao Cao), he discovered an important military secret of Eastern Wu. Zhou Yu pretended to wake up from his sleep in the middle of the night and vomited by the bedside. He said groggily to Jiang Gan, "Ziyi, in a few days time, I will show you Cao Cao's head."

    Jiang Gan thought that what was written in the letter was true and quietly sneaked back into bed. Later, Zhou Yu's subordinates woke him up and Zhou Yu pretended to have awoken from his state of drunkenness. The subordinates told him to go outside the tent to tell him of some important military news. Jiang Gan crept out of bed again and eavesdropped on the conversation, hearing them mention plans of Cai Mao and Zhang Yun assassinating Cao Cao. Jiang Gan sneaked out of the Wu camp and went back to the Wei camp with the letter.

    Jiang Gan showed Cao Cao the letter and Cao Cao was furious. He summoned Cai Mao and Zhang Yun and asked them why the construction of the naval base was delayed. Cai Mao and Zhang Yun tried to explain but Cao Cao cut them off, saying "By then, my head would have already been in the hands of Zhou Yu!". Cai Mao and Zhang Yun were puzzled and Cao Cao ordered them to be executed immediately. Jiang Gan seemed pleased that he had made a great contribution by exposing the treachery of Cai Mao and Zhang Yun.

    Suddenly, Cao Cao realised that he had been tricked by Zhou Yu and ordered the executioners to hold on, but was too late as Cai and Zhang had already been executed. Cao Cao did not want to admit that he had been tricked and forced himself to praise Jiang Gan for exposing the treachery although he was fuming inside. Jiang Gan had not realised that this was a scheme all set up by Zhou Yu to get rid of Cai Mao and Zhang Yun and was pleased with himself.

    Later, Cao Cao decided to send Jiang Gan again to spy on Zhou Yu but many of Cao Cao's advisors objected. Nevertheless, Jiang Gan still went to Eastern Wu. At that time, Zhou Yu was planning his attack on the Wei camp when he heard of Jiang Gan's arrival. He laughed again and decided to make use of Jiang Gan to aid him in completing his plan. Zhou Yu pretended to be furious with Jiang Gan, saying "Last time, you stole the letter and allowed military secrets to be leaked out, causing my plan to end up in failure." Zhou Yu wanted to have Jiang Gan executed but on account of their past friendship, he ordered to have Jiang Gan barred from entering his camp.

    Jiang Gan wandered to a nearby temple and met Pang Tong. After a conversation with Pang, Jiang recognised Pang's talent and tried to recruit him into Cao Cao's camp. Pang agreed and went back to Wei with Jiang Gan. This was meant to be a ruse as Pang Tong and Zhou Yu had agreed beforehand on this plan. Pang was to meet Cao Cao, who would not suspect him, and suggest to Cao Cao the strategy of 'linking the battleships together with iron chains', which would later cause Cao Cao's defeat in the Battle of Red Cliffs.
    Zhou Yu is the ENTJ in this story. Jiang Gan was a spy sent from the enemy camp (Cao Cao) and childhood firend of zhou yu, but now they were in opposing sides of war.
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  10. #50
    Junior Member Putin's Avatar
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    I'm only manipulative when I need to. Which is not very often. But I'm damn good at it.
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