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  1. #21
    Junior Member Josephine's Avatar
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    Provoker - you said:
    On the other hand, if I leave it on I end up giving lectures about things and then, if interrupted or if I see their eyes start to wander, I may get really irritable. In recent years, I've really developed an encyclopedic mind and a textbook-like approach to phenomena. It seems to me that I am more intellectual than witty which seems to work to my disadvantage in light-hearted social environments.

    First of all, are you sure you're not overstating the degree to which you approach everything in a logical manner? Your description sounds very robotic to me, and I don't think that real people are actually like that. Not that I know you better than you know yourself - but the above just seems overstated to me (or maybe lacking in other descriptions of yourself that would counterbalance it).

    As for lecturing, I know a person who does that - it's really annoying. Sorry. :sad: It's not your intelligence that would turn people off in that case - it would be the lecturing. If a stupid person lectures you, it's just as annoying as when a smart person lectures you. In both cases, the lecturer takes on a parental role and doesn't leave much room for opposing opinions.

    In my experience, people really enjoy being around smart individuals as long as the smart person comes across as pleasant, open minded and non-judgmental. Unfortunately, many people who are very academically successful are uncomfortable and stilted in social situations, which makes them seem arrogant, intolerant of differences or twitchy/nervous. Lecturing people (one manifestation of this discomfort) can come off as condescending - you can say your piece, but do it in a faster, gentler, maybe even more humorous manner.
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  2. #22
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josephine View Post
    Provoker - you said:
    On the other hand, if I leave it on I end up giving lectures about things and then, if interrupted or if I see their eyes start to wander, I may get really irritable. In recent years, I've really developed an encyclopedic mind and a textbook-like approach to phenomena. It seems to me that I am more intellectual than witty which seems to work to my disadvantage in light-hearted social environments.

    First of all, are you sure you're not overstating the degree to which you approach everything in a logical manner? Your description sounds very robotic to me, and I don't think that real people are actually like that. Not that I know you better than you know yourself - but the above just seems overstated to me (or maybe lacking in other descriptions of yourself that would counterbalance it).

    As for lecturing, I know a person who does that - it's really annoying. Sorry. :sad: It's not your intelligence that would turn people off in that case - it would be the lecturing. If a stupid person lectures you, it's just as annoying as when a smart person lectures you. In both cases, the lecturer takes on a parental role and doesn't leave much room for opposing opinions.

    In my experience, people really enjoy being around smart individuals as long as the smart person comes across as pleasant, open minded and non-judgmental. Unfortunately, many people who are very academically successful are uncomfortable and stilted in social situations, which makes them seem arrogant, intolerant of differences or twitchy/nervous. Lecturing people (one manifestation of this discomfort) can come off as condescending - you can say your piece, but do it in a faster, gentler, maybe even more humorous manner.
    Maybe you're just hanging around the wrong kind of people.

  3. #23
    Junior Member Josephine's Avatar
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    What do you mean? Are you talking about the person I know who lectures? He's a close family member, so I can't really choose to avoid him.

    ETA: I just looked at my post again, and I realized that you're talking about the academically successful people who're socially awkward. Unfortunately, I don't think it's just the people I hang out with (mainly because I don't hang out with any people). It's just a broad observation of what I've seen, and I believe that it holds to true more often than not. Maybe because devoting a lot of time to studying leaves little time to learn about social interactions.
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  4. #24
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josephine View Post
    What do you mean? Are you talking about the person I know who lectures? He's a close family member, so I can't really choose to avoid him.

    ETA: I just looked at my post again, and I realized that you're talking about the academically successful people who're socially awkward. Unfortunately, I don't think it's just the people I hang out with (mainly because I don't hang out with any people). It's just a broad observation of what I've seen, and I believe that it holds to true more often than not. Maybe because devoting a lot of time to studying leaves little time to learn about social interactions.
    Actually, I was referring to the sort of people who would interpret a frank relaying of facts as "lecturing".

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josephine View Post
    First of all, are you sure you're not overstating the degree to which you approach everything in a logical manner? Your description sounds very robotic to me, and I don't think that real people are actually like that.
    I actually am like that which relates to the point of this thread. While I don't like the negative connotations associated with the term "robotic", I am essentially mechanical and systematic in my approach to phenomena. Therefore, when I say that in certain cases I hold back and/or modify my behavior to seem more human, I do so with the assumption that my natural approach can come off as robotic and mechanical just as you perceived it to be. This is the point at which intelligence, personality, and politics intersect--which especially interests me. Still more, there was a reason I posted this in the NT thread. My hope is that there are atleast some other NTs who can relate in some way and I'm curious what strategies and tactics they employ and why.

  6. #26
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    I actually am like that which relates to the point of this thread. While I don't like the negative connotations associated with the term "robotic", I am essentially mechanical and systematic in my approach to phenomena. Therefore, when I say that in certain cases I hold back and/or modify my behavior to seem more human, I do so with the assumption that my natural approach can come off as robotic and mechanical just as you perceived it to be. This is the point at which intelligence, personality, and politics intersect--which especially interests me. Still more, there was a reason I posted this in the NT thread. My hope is that there are atleast some other NTs who can relate in some way and I'm curious what strategies and tactics they employ and why.
    Apologies for the derails.

    To answer your question, I am a member of the "fake it 'til you make it" camp. Initially my fear was that people would recognize my insincerity, but that has proven not to be an issue.

  7. #27
    Broud Balestinian G-Virus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    Let me clarify a few things. First, obviously it should be assumed that in posting on a "personality forum" the topic relates to personality. Second, in making this post, the assumption is that intelligence has a fixed value that is held constant while what varies (and is what I am specifically concerned about) is human bahavior in response to how the politics of intelligence plays out. To this end, some posters have answered my question while others have dwelled on the implicit assumptions while not answering the main question driving this thread. I could have forumulated it slightly differently: have you ever felt embarassed by your intelligence? y/n and why? And please, don't write a textbook on whether embarassment is a function of personality and/or intelligence because that would miss the point.
    as some of the other posters have already stated, I don't think your post has anything to do with you being embarrassed about your intelligence as it does with you having to deal with the interests of others that donít interest you for the sake of politeness.

    In real life, I just engage these interests on a superficial level till I can get away from it, or till the topic can be changed to something else that interests me. If I find myself in a situation where it canít be avoided, I present my perspective on the issue in as diplomatic of a way as possible no matter how polarizing my thoughts may be.

    To answer your question, I am not embarrassed by my intelligence.
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  8. #28
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    True, of course, but I was responding to the general sentiment, here explicitly stated by Liquid Laser, that, gosh, it's just a matter of personal taste - just because the decision in question fails to take into account obvious facts and fails to arrive at the obvious conclusion can't have anything to do with intelligence!
    Heh, the OP is talking about not laughing at some program that his friend finds hilarious. You don't think that has more to do with personality than intelligence?
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  9. #29
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    I never said that intelligence was the cause of this behavior, this is an example of a misinterpretation of my post...whenever the word intelligence comes up people start linning up on the barricades and it obstructs real objective analysis. I stated in my follow-up post that intelligence is to be held fixed. Therefore, if you want to debate intelligence do so in another thread because it would be missing the main point of this one. Here, we are assuming a definitive value so that we can analyze the other variables that affect how the politics of intelligence plays out in real time. While intelligence is one phenomena, how you behave around others in response to your perception of your own intelligence is really what I'm after. It's very straightforward.
    Nice, so you have already concluded that you don't know how you handle yourself, given your level of intelligence. I'm extremely smart and a real know-it-all, yet I also enjoy retarded TV-shows. Real-world variables are often to be modeled as stochastic processes rather than by immanent logical structures, so a purely rational approach might actually not be the most sensible. This leads to another conclusion: that as long as your interaction with the world leads to the wrong results, you are utilizing either a wrong or an incomplete model.

    For goodness, sake, people. It's my general M.O. to look the other way, so to speak, on all of this "all types born equal" hoo-hah bandied about this board for the sake of being a reasonably amicable member of the community, but when people try to claim that the ability to accurately gauge the long-term consequences of one's actions and recognize faulty reasoning is unrelated to intelligence, it's too much for me.

    People who habitually make what will inevitably prove be poor decisions in the long run for the sake of momentary satisfaction do so because they are not smart.
    Right. Some types have it all - they're smart, funny, and sociable. Some others lack one of these qualities, and thus try to overcompensate by other means. Some others, again, simply come to terms with their limitations instead of artificially constructing an ivory tower.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Real-world variables are often to be modeled as stochastic processes rather than by immanent logical structures, so a purely rational approach might actually not be the most sensible. This leads to another conclusion: that as long as your interaction with the world leads to the wrong results, you are utilizing either a wrong or an incomplete model.
    .
    FDG, you make some very interesting points. Let me first be more specific about my system. My approach to the real world implies a mixture of empirical observation and rational calculation: I take in information via intuition and my initial findings then sift through the mill of my intellect. The sifting process itself involves utilizing syllogisms, from which I deduce information, as well building information based on axioms I believe to be valid. After all deductions are made, I am left with a judgment (after all, I am an INTJ). The judgment refers to an evaluation of a given piece of information at which point I assign a definitive value (good, bad, indifferent, or it could be a percentage, probability, and so forth). Judgments, over time, are compiled and placed in a storage compartment--what may otherwise be called Read-Only Memory. This is the essence of how I operate on a daily basis. The reason I started this thread is primarily because I want to make my system better. Like you said, my model might be incomplete and it is possible that there are resources not being allocated in the right areas. I understand it as quite economical: if I let myself feel, I forego critical thinking (I offend myself somewhat in doing this), while on the other hand if I hold critical thinking constant, and forego feeling (I am not much fun to be around). Perhaps it shouldn't be so dichotomized, but because I am somewhat charismatic, (i.e. if I am laughing people around me have a better time and if I have my thinking cap on I get told to lighten up and/or make others feel guilty for having a good time in my presence), It puts more pressure on me to make good judgments in terms of how I conduct myself around others. This antithetical and paradoxical nature has split my personality into a person with the capacity for cold rigorous calculation on the one hand and likability and animacy on the other. I strive to balance the two according to context and common sense. But every so often a scenario occurs when the two collide with eachother causing me to either become extremely intense or shutdown and repress altogether. It is a rarity for this to occur, and when I started this thread I was having a bad day and compiled a few other events that had ticked me off during the year. Therefore it is not a common pattern--but a pattern none the less and one that can be thought through and tweaked to ensure better outcomes in the future.

    FDG, as you noted, "real-world variables are often to be modeled as stochastic processes rather than by immanent logical structures, so a purely rational approach might actually not be the most sensible." I agree, I think I need to work on my improvization and let the instrument play as it will rather than always tapping into premeditative information that I've already thought through.

    Thanks for the feedback so far!!

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