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Thread: INTP Central

  1. #281
    Senior Member stigmatica's Avatar
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    You've just proven my point

  2. #282
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    I like Anon's summary of it, pretty accurate IMO:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    I wouldn't say that I'm a part of any cliques, but I still feel reasonably accepted. At one time, you could have said that I was in a clique, though even then, I was more of a fence sitter than really a part of it. Prior to that, I didn't have any friends there, and yet I still felt accepted enough, even if people didn't pay much attention to me. Right now, I still have some friends, but we no longer converse regularly or anything.

    But again, I wouldn't say that I feel like an outsider or anything. I think it's more that there's a number of certain archetypes of behavior that are accepted in INTPc, and if you fit one of them, you're more likely to be accepted and brought into one of these cliques. If you're not, there has to be something unique and creative about you (like Limey or Hustler).

    Of course, this still ends up looking a lot like and behaving a lot like a cliquish pace, so I suppose the differences don't matter that much, when it comes down to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Pretty much. I am not saying it is based on the same things a social SJ-style clique forms (like sororities or frat houses), but the end result is simply that some people feel included and accepted and others do not, and sometimes it feels like it comes down to personalities, not content.
    As far as I can tell, I reckon feeling included and accepted is in the eye of the beholder, although that's only a fairly recent insight for me. Yeah, sure, on INTPc, there are sometimes lynch mobs for some of the trolls or moobs who whine and complain about the forum culture. But outside of that, IMO feeling accepted/part of the forum has more to do with what's going on inside that person's head than any of the external interactions, or lack of them.

    I'm at the point where I view even the lurkers who don't post or barely post as an integral part of the forum. Also, and this might sound a bit odd, often when I post I'm not expecting any replies. I know people read what I write. I occasionally feel invisible but if I'm being honest, that's pretty much me projecting my own insecurities onto the forum.

    And the group think part of INTPc means that there often isn't any need to reply to particular posts because you know that many of the people also reading a particular thread or noticing a particular poster are thinking the same as you, so actually posting seems unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Probably. I just think there's more chance you'll actually get a response to your post here, by SOMEONE, rather than just being routinely ignored.
    Heh. I rarely get responses on here, unless I'm posting in a friend's blog or something. TypoC actually feels way more cliquey to me, but perhaps I'm misreading it which is entirely possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by stigmatica View Post
    INTPc members, for whatever reason, seem to shy away from praising others for there insightfulness
    Agreed. I haven't worked out yet whether that's a healthy thing or not, but it's definitely part of the forum culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What you say here is actually what I'm picking up, intellectually; it's just hard to overcome emotions sometimes, if one is forced to acknowledge them at all.

    it's not that I'm looking for intellectual confirmation necessarily of the ideas themselves, I'm pretty confident in my thought and reasoning, I guess I participate in forums partly for the social/personal reinforcement; and getting an acknowledgment of any degree to a post is a way that I can recognize that, while I might exist wholly and fine as an isolated and independent individual, I'm still part of larger humanity and this reassures me that I am not invisible or unaccepted in the larger community.
    Hmm, I suspect you may have proved my point.
    Last edited by bluebell; 06-02-2009 at 08:23 AM. Reason: moobs, wtf?
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  3. #283
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    As far as I can tell, I reckon feeling included and accepted is in the eye of the beholder, although that's only a fairly recent insight for me. Yeah, sure, on INTPc, there are sometimes lynch mobs for some of the trolls or those who whine and complain about the forum culture. But outside of that, feeling accepted/part of the forum has more to do with what's going on inside that person's head than any of the external interactions, or lack of them.
    Probably.

    I was raised by ISFJs, remember? So social cues were beaten into my head as a way to judge acceptance, where it's polite to just give an "Mmmm hmmm" response even if you have nothing to contribute just so someone knows that you heard them, and if you don't, you're excluding them; and I also lived in dysfunctional environments where not getting feedback meant that people really were rejecting me.

    That's my personal bias here. Uniformly INTPs expect a lot less social affirmation, so there's discomfort there when someone expects more... whether because of type or whatever reason.

    And I don't think it protects against cliques. If you put out comments and routinely no one responds to you, if it's the same 15-20 people that consistently respond to each other's posts and have running discussions while not bothering to engage anyone else's comments... then you come away with the message that either your comments suck, or that they're a clique and you're not accepted, or both.

    I'm at the point where I view even the lurkers who don't post or barely post as an integral part of the forum.
    Why?

    Also, and this might sound a bit odd, often when I post I'm not expecting any replies. I know people read what I write. I occasionally feel invisible but if I'm being honest, that's pretty much me projecting my own insecurities onto the forum.
    Probably. Where I agree is that in the end our personal security as a person can't be based on other people's acknowledgments or affirmations. We're responsible for our own self-acceptance. Regardless of how one feels, if you start reacting to feelings of alienation, you will become alienated. So the "cure" is still the same -- assume you belong, and get in there, and participate, and ignore any cues or absence of cues.

    But it doesn't mean the perceptions aren't accurate.

    And the group think part of INTPc means that there often isn't any need to reply to particular posts because you know that many of the people also reading a particular thread or noticing a particular poster are thinking the same as you, so actually posting seems unnecessary.
    I remember days when I was younger where I operated from that reasoning, but I guess my upbringing + being married + raising children really changed me. Especially the kids. If you don't affirm the kid even when they're just saying something redundant or "understood," THEY don't know that yet... they're looking for validation because they're still young, and if you don't validate them so that they can see transparently into your mind, there's a strong possibility they'll feel unloved. it depends on the kid, but in general this is even what contributed to the collective personality of Gen X -- a bunch of kids who did not get positive affirmation from parents.... so even if their parents DID love them, they didn't get any signs from the parents that really nailed it in place, and look what happened.

    So who knows? Maybe I'm more sensitive to it because I wasn't affirmed adequately when younger and I'm still looking for it, although I have to say I'm a lot healthier today than I was twenty years ago. I dunno.

    Heh. I rarely get responses on here, unless I'm posting in a friend's blog or something. TypoC actually feels way more cliquey to me, but perhaps I'm misreading it which is entirely possible.
    overall, i see people get integrated more... like I said, there's more variety, so there's more chance that someone will find a place they fit. But this could just be the difference between there being one clique, versus many cliques. And we know in some past there's been some pretty blatant cliques, although some of the people involved in those have moved on.

    Hmm, I suspect you may have proved my point.
    Possibly. I aim to please.

    Just to be a pain in the ass on my end:
    I think it would be an interesting experiment to see how long someone continues to post on a forum where no matter what or how often they post, no one responds to them. Following your logic, we should assume that we belong anyway. But I don't think human beings in general work that way -- even the most socially desensitized eventually would give up and go elsewhere and perhaps even take it personally after time passes. I think social cues matter and have impact, even if people claim they don't.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #284
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Giving praise isn't an INTP habit. Nor do we like to receive it (well I don't). It's redundant. If I don't agree with you I'll tell you so. If I do, what's the point, unless I have something to add? This leads me to often interact most with people I can't stand, since we are seldom in agreement.
    Sometimes, I will make the effort because I recognize that validation is important to other types. But then it usually feels fake.

    ETA. I posted before seeing your post, Jennifer, in response to bb's. Raising kids is different. That's where self-esteem is built. Adults shouldn't need constant affirmation, IMO. It's tiresome.

    Another reason I don't do this is that I hate to read through pages of nothing but +1s and LOLz. I think those should be reserved for rep, in general. Ironically, I've always considered it poor forum etiquette, but I have no idea what other people think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #285
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Giving praise isn't an INTP habit. Nor do we like to receive it ( well I don't). It's redundant. If I don't agree with you I'll tell you so. If I do, what's the point, unless I have something to add?
    same here... when someone praises me, I don't even know how to respond -- for the same reasoning you've put out.

    But I'm not talking about praise, I'm talking about simply providing social cues that lets someone know you're listening. Maybe online that's harder than in real life.

    Why do we think INTPs have the most unhappy mates, percentage-wise, when surveyed? Unless they're taught the importance of social cues in terms of relational living (or unless they marry someone just like themselves), chances are they're not going to communicate their intentions and commitments adequately.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ...ETA I posted before seeing your post, Jennifer, in response to bbs. Raising kids is different. That's where self-esteem is built. Adults shouldn't need constant affirmation ,IMO. It's tiresome.
    I actually agree and thought of that as I was typing... but was too tired of the topic to bother saying it, I had to shut off the flow somewhere. Thanks for mentioning it, it was worth saying.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #286
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^You're right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #287
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ^You're right!

    Yeah, like why the hell should I care what you think?






    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #288
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Because I'm awesome?

    You just need to be wrong more often. You're too fucking smart for your own good!

    It's true about the being ignored thing. But I think if you are the only person who is being ignored, it's a valid assumption to believe that you are being singled out and rejected. At INTPc, being ignored is pretty much the default unless you are really annoying. Then you get lots of attention. That's probably why there is so much trolling there. Also paranoia about trolling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #289
    We all got it comin' kid Delilah's Avatar
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    It's not ignoring, it's nodding in agreement like I would be doing IRL if we were sitting around having drinks. But if you really need validation I could post something like this:

    *nods affirmatively, sips drink, waits for you to continue*

    to let you know I agree.
    *clinging to my face like a starfish of love* ....... PinkPiranha

  10. #290
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    *ignores you*






    :p
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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