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  1. #241
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Hitler was lucky. I really DON'T think he was INTJ. His power didn't lie in strategy.
    How so? His entire political campaign was built upon his strategic planning and organization in accordance with his vision. You seem to imply that the only form of strategy in existence is military. Considering Hitler's limited strategic military training and experience (he was only a corporal, after all), the military understanding he did exhibit was remarkable. What of Stalin's simplistic strategical maneuvering, which basically consisted of launching massive offensives?

    The members on this site too often fall prey to typecasting. They seem to believe that all members of a certain type must be proficient in the natural fields that lend themselves to them; however, type does not indicate skill. Simply because one is of a certain type, say an INFP, does not indicate great artistic ability, only potential, and even this is limited in consideration of other factors, such as intelligence, that do not fully lie within the sphere of MBTI.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  2. #242
    Sniffles
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    Stalin certainly lacked ability in operational matters, but did show considerable grasping of grand strategy and logistics for example. Even Allied leaders like Churchill and Eisenhower were impressed.

  3. #243
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Operations are for peons

    Strategy is for the head

  4. #244
    Member Caesar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    How so? His entire political campaign was built upon his strategic planning and organization in accordance with his vision. You seem to imply that the only form of strategy in existence is military. Considering Hitler's limited strategic military training and experience (he was only a corporal, after all), the military understanding he did exhibit was remarkable. What of Stalin's simplistic strategical maneuvering, which basically consisted of launching massive offensives?

    The members on this site too often fall prey to typecasting. They seem to believe that all members of a certain type must be proficient in the natural fields that lend themselves to them; however, type does not indicate skill. Simply because one is of a certain type, say an INFP, does not indicate great artistic ability, only potential, and even this is limited in consideration of other factors, such as intelligence, that do not fully lie within the sphere of MBTI.
    As I implied, his motivations were personal, symbolic and even poetic. And his negative Fe comes out the most when he was on the verge of defeat: his interpersonal relationships fall apart because he was too busy seeing betrayals. I look more to Nietzsche as an insane INTJ.
    "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." - Oscar Wilde

  5. #245
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    I never claimed as such. However, his militarism and the disciplined structure he imposed strongly indicate that he was an XNTJ. To think that an INTJ cannot be a visionary who shapes society contradicts all understanding of MBTI. You obviously misunderstood my entire post, as your response is absurd.
    I'm actually not arguing about MBTI at this moment, I'm arguing about your understanding of Hitler. It certainly is plausible Hitler was INTJ in my view, he most certainly was Ni-dom based on what we know about him and his own descriptions of his way of thinking. What I am questioning are your specific arguments made in support of this thesis, based upon a certain understanding of Hitler's life and even the nature of Nazi ideology.

    To think that an INFJ would develop a philosophy that is as discriminatory and elitist as National Socialism! Absurd.
    I could offer Dostoevsky as a possible example actually. Nikolai Berdyaev also spoke about the need for a "spiritual aristocracy".

    Marxism and National Socialism are simply not NF constructs, although Marxism would lend itself more to NFs than National Socialism.
    I sincerely doubt ideologies can be categorized by typology, and in anycase the common idealistic appeals to heroism and community found in National Socialism could appeal very much to NFs; just like the common appeals towards such in Marxism would too. There's also a more primary emphasis on ritual and aesthetics than in Marxism.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar View Post
    Have you guys read books about him? At the end of the war, how Anthony Beevor described Hitler is very typical of an INFJ gone bonkers. He held on to the idealistic notion of a dramatic and heroic overturning of Allied advances and kept boasting about some "wunderwaffen" that never was. He saw betrayal and treason all around him and arbitrarily killed and fired able generals who disagreed with his "visions". He's the epitome of an idealistic visionary whose perfect world has no stake in reality. He banned any talk of defeat and surrender and was convinced of the infinite power of the Third Reich; he didn't know Soviet factories were out-producing German ones at an astounding rate, and infantry was outnumbered by a ratio of more than 10:1 and when a clever and perceptive officer put together these statistics, he insisted that they were fake. He believed a quality intrinsic in the Aryan race would allow them to overpower the Slavic soldiers. Sometimes, however, he privately admitted the imminent defeat.

    He was stubbornly irrational despite having no experience in military strategy and insisted on some disastrous maneuvers for poetic reasons. For example, when it was wise to abandon (I think it was) Warsaw to concentrate their forces elsewhere, he couldn't bear the thought of giving up the capital city of an annexed land because it was symbolic of his victories and insisted that the troops fight to the death. Warsaw fell anyway, so did the other front. Towards the end of the Third Reich, he was increasingly paranoid (understandable, given the number of attempts on his life) and punished anyone whom he perceived to override his power in order to take emergency measures, even though conferring with him would cause a lag of a day or more, thus impeding swift military action.
    I take it this from both Stalingrad and Berlin - The Downfall 1945?

  7. #247
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm actually not arguing about MBTI at this moment, I'm arguing about your understanding of Hitler. It certainly is plausible Hitler was INTJ in my view, he most certainly was Ni-dom based on what we know about him and his own descriptions of his way of thinking. What I am questioning are your specific arguments made in support of this thesis, based upon a certain understanding of Hitler's life and even the nature of Nazi ideology.
    You are questioning my understanding of Hitler? :rolleyes2: Where exactly is your evidence demonstrating anything apart from a palpable lack of reasoning ability and knowledge of MBTI typology?

    I could offer Dostoevsky as a possible example actually. Nikolai Berdyaev also spoke about the need for a "spiritual aristocracy".
    Dostoevsky and Berdyaev (if they were truly INFJs) were romantically attached to notions of morality and the turmoil of human interaction—their writings express it quite clearly. This is very different from the calculated theorizing employed by Hitler, Lenin, Mao, Stalin, et al.

    I sincerely doubt ideologies can be categorized by typology,
    I sincerely doubt that they cannot.

    and in anycase the common idealistic appeals to heroism and community found in National Socialism could appeal very much to NFs; just like the common appeals towards such in Marxism would too. There's also a more primary emphasis on ritual and aesthetics than in Marxism.
    NFs, if they find National Socialism appealing at all, and I find it highly dubious that there are many, would do so out of some masochistic desire for order and guidance in their lives. It's rather pathetic, really. Obviously, they can be swayed by populist rhetoric and noble causes, but you would err in conflating this with the actual conception of the guiding philosophies. All MBTI types can be convinced to lend loyalty to a particular cause, for if this were not the case, Hitler's ascension to power would have been impossible.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  8. #248
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Stalin certainly lacked ability in operational matters, but did show considerable grasping of grand strategy and logistics for example. Even Allied leaders like Churchill and Eisenhower were impressed.
    So what? I am not questioning Stalin as an INTJ; he most certainly was. The only purpose of my comparison was to underscore that type does not necessarily indicate skill, only potential at best. As I have stated, Hitler, in consideration of his lack of strategic military training, displayed a remarkable aptitude in the field, and this is in conjunction with the fact that while his military strategies sometimes entailed negative consequences, his political strategy was impeccable.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  9. #249
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    You are questioning my understanding of Hitler? :rolleyes2: Where exactly is your evidence demonstrating anything apart from a palpable lack of reasoning ability and knowledge of MBTI typology?
    I've discussed Hitler here plenty of times before, and I've been researching WWII history for close to 20 years now. So if you want to question my understanding of Hitler and WWII, go ahead. As I already noted, I'm not questioning the possibility Hitler was INTJ, I'm just questioning some of the evidence you're presenting to support it - and not even on typological but simple historical grounds.

    NFs, if they find National Socialism appealing at all, and I find it highly dubious that there are many, would do so out of some masochistic desire for order and guidance in their lives.
    What exactly do you base this on?

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    So what?
    So, your argument about Stalin was wrong.
    I am not questioning Stalin as an INTJ; he most certainly was.
    Yeah, I proposed that possibility too. But I'm not talking about type here, just history.

    As I have stated, Hitler, in consideration of his lack of strategic military training, displayed a remarkable aptitude in the field, and this is in conjunction with the fact that while his military strategies sometimes entailed negative consequences, his political strategy was impeccable.
    I already mentioned his greater grasp of political strategy in this thread, and assessed his skills as military commander as well. He certainly wasn't the greatest Field-Marshal of all time, but he wasn't totally incompetent either in military affairs.

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