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  1. #31
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    it's common to most NT's I think... or T's in general, actually. reasons/motives for it vary hugely from individual to individual, but as a general tendency, I think most T's tend to carry some kind of baggage around that causes a knee-jerk response to the phrase 'open up' and the word 'intimate'. In my case it's not so much that I don't want to, or that I fear losing autonomy, as just that I have had lots of experiences where I've overridden my emotional baggage and taken the chance, only to be abandoned later.

    So, fear of abandonment can be added to the list of possible motives for fearing intimacy. I remember a poem I read that was written by a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. He talked about how, at great pain and personal cost to himself, he worked and worked at trying to build a bridge between himself and the rest of humanity, on nothing but trust, listening to the people who promised him that if he stopped isolating himself and opened up to other people, then things would be great, he wouldn't have to feel lonely any more. Well, in the poem, he did all this, and then once he built his bridge 'with tears for supports, blood for rivets and pain for ropes', and after taking a painful leap of faith to cross it, he found there was nobody there on the other side.

    That poem resonated with me quite strongly at the time as it was how I've often felt when I've listened to people lecturing me about opening up, then I've taken the leap of faith and then the person who was so desperate to get me to do it has not been there to show me round this new territory. So I've just dashed back to the other side again, burning the bridge as I go.

    Each time I've opened up to somebody, I've had to build that bridge again and it's been harder every time in light of previous experience. So each time I've been let down, it became less likely that I'd ever try again.

    What changed was that I had to alter my expectations and motivations for building it. But that in itself is an ongoing struggle. The temptation to just withdraw permanently is always there in the background and sometimes it comes further forwards.

    It's funny how my E can create a false impression of my not having withdrawn; it pushes me out there, but it doesn't demand that I attach. The temptation to withdraw doesn't manifest itself the same for an E - the withdrawal is inside, whilst with the INTP it's externalized in a more literal sense, staying in, not talking to people, becoming a recluse. In my case, I just spend most of my time alone in a crowded room, when this happens. It can be harder to get support because it's harder to recognize when an ENTP has withdrawn. People say 'you've got loads of friends though, you're always out and about!' and they think everything's A-OK.

    Nu-uh.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #32
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    i am wondering a bit whether fear of being controlled is more of the INTP fear and fear of abandonment is more of the ENTP thing. Probably not that clear-cut, but I think it could boil down to things like this:

    INTPs are less comfortable in their social ability, so they fear someone trying to exert control over them because they are less able to defend themselves and still remain engaged. The only way to protect the self is to vanish.

    ENTPs are more comfortable in their social ability and know they can take care of themselves if someone gets a little over-excited or tries to pin them down; however, the one thing they can't control is someone who pulls away from THEM (the abandonment parT).

    in fact, I wonder if that is an IxTx versus ExTx thing -- one side feels more uncomfortable socially, so fears being trapped, while the other feels competent socially and fears being dumped.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
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    Possibly Jennifer, but I tend also to think of the control issue too... I don't like to control other people with my emotions, and I don't like it when they do it to me either. I guess in my experience though this has often been the case, perhaps leaving me with a bad Fe taste in my mouth which has been difficult to not carry over to a prejudice against all emotional expression...

    What's happened a lot with me is that a situation has evolved wherein I'm desired to express myself emotionally but only when it suits them. The rest of the time, my ABILITY to suppress my emotions has been relied on and very much taken for granted, as the other person has expressed theirs, clearly expecting that the situation ought to change in order to accommodate their feelings... but they've not been willing to put THEIR feelings aside to accommodate mine, as they've wanted and expected me to do. So in effect, the relationship could not have existed smoothly for more than a day if it hadn't been for my not only ability, but habit, of putting my feelings aside to affect a practical solution (practical for me in that making them happy means my headache goes away lol).

    But I've sometimes just thrown out the idea to the other person, y'know, like suppose this time, YOU give way and *I* get what makes ME happy? And the response is always the same: "Oh but I can't do that. I'm not strong like you."

    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Possibly Jennifer, but I tend also to think of the control issue too... I don't like to control other people with my emotions, and I don't like it when they do it to me either. I guess in my experience though this has often been the case, perhaps leaving me with a bad Fe taste in my mouth which has been difficult to not carry over to a prejudice against all emotional expression...
    Well, read my idea as a "generalization" -- obviously people of any sort have some degree of control and abandonment fears, and they toss us back and forth. I'm just exploring whether there's a tendency to one or the other in a particular type approach.

    PS. Hi sub!!!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
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    Heh, yeah hi

    Yeah I think in general you could be onto something there...

    I'm thinking of the couple of times in my life - literally, count 'em on one hand - when I've decided to see what would happen if I behaved like the other person; if I've insisted that I couldn't go against my feelings, that I needed to do what felt right to me, even if that didn't seem to make sense or didn't seem completely fair to them. And each and every time they've kicked and screamed like a bitch about how selfish, immature, unreasonable etc I was being. Even though I was just doing EXACTLY what they do, and only asking of them EXACTLY what they demanded of me 24/7.

    I think sometimes when people try to push somebody to behave in a way that's uncharacteristic, they can find they get more than they bargained for... so, if your guy isn't naturally inclined to be 'intimate', I wouldn't push him if I were you - you might get a bit more intimacy than you were after - you might find that the feelings he opens up to you aren't quite what you expected...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Fear of intimacy? meh.
    Reserving intimacy for the few considered deserving? .
    Fear of losing autonomy - big time.
    It's not the same as ExxP flightiness.
    Ditto.

    For the "average" INTP, it's not fear, it's not wanting to be intimate with anyone but the best.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Ditto.

    For the "average" INTP, it's not fear, it's not wanting to be intimate with anyone but the best.
    ...the definition of 'the best' being, of course, highly subjective here
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...the definition of 'the best' being, of course, highly subjective here
    Of course. What matters to the INTP is all that matters.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Of course. What matters to the INTP is all that matters.
    Alert the press! INTP admits existence of contexts wherein subjectivity is valid! Read all about it!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Alert the press! INTP admits existence of contexts wherein subjectivity is valid! Read all about it!
    SHHHHH!!!!

    Crazy ENTPs. You'll blather EVERY secret we've got if you don't shut up.

    Anyway... I'm still interested in hearing about ENFPs.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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