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  1. #21
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    I know that personally I love intimate relationships... with people I can trust to not abuse the information I've given them by trying to gain power over me. If they are willing to go that deep, I am willing to go that deep. In fact, I *want* to go that deep and become bored when someone won't.
    As ENFP, I almost always want to know. What you said reminded me of when the INTP said to me, "I'm not going to tell you now because you asked again." This is so strange to me because it seemed like he WANTED to share, but I guess maybe he felt the pressure. At the same time, for me, it is hard to switch off like that... into a mode of indifference. But, it's almost like that's what he wanted me to do...

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post
    Yeah, that is so interesting! I love how open to possibilities you NTs are...
    Yup, nothing is inviolate!

    As soon as the data stream changes, reality changes and thus truth changes. It is intellectual integrity, you have to accommodate the data even if you do not like it.

    It's like... THIS IS HOW IT IS... but... maybe not.
    I would correct this to:
    "THIS IS HOW IT IS <UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME> or <BASED ON ALL INFORMATION I CURRENTLY HAVE>."

    It's why I state things emphatically, so I sound sure to others... but as soon as you give me info that differs, I change my stance. The conclusion being drawn in the moment is very certain because it's very qualified -- but what changes is the information, and the new conclusion drawn is very certain based on the pool of data.

    Does that make sense?

    The Ti process is very sure of itself; it's the information that is the weak point. If information is changing rapidly, the conclusions can change rapidly.

    Such a contrast to my ISTJ and ESFP friends who are like THIS IS HOW IT IS... period.
    ISxJ too, but they flex based on Fe needs to accommodate others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post
    As ENFP, I almost always want to know. What you said reminded me of when the INTP said to me, "I'm not going to tell you now because you asked again." This is so strange to me because it seemed like he WANTED to share, but I guess maybe he felt the pressure. At the same time, for me, it is hard to switch off like that... into a mode of indifference. But, it's almost like that's what he wanted me to do...
    I'm not sure about that -- whether it's just reticence on his part, or because in some way you did something (inadvertently) to make him unsure of you. I think when something is revealed, if someone misses it or forgets it, it can feel like a slight. I don't know. It's all context.

    or if you seem too eager, that sometimes triggers reticence as well. The distrust of emotion and/or interest sometimes can lead to INTPs pulling in their heads if someone gets too excited about a personal interaction. (I'm okay with those things now, but I remember feeling very uneasy in the past.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    It was a little of both. The realization that I was hurting people was an eye-opener after I was hurt myself several times in the same way. Selfish realization, I suppose. Meeting a person who was willing to fight ... really fight ... to keep me was an eye-opener as well. It was amazing to find a person who, after I screwed up, didn't just throw me away ... but rather fought to straighten me out and was there for me. Mind you, she doesn't tolerate indescretions on my part, but she is willing to work though my past with me. Having somebody who really cares about me that much, makes me think twice before I act nowsdays.
    Hmm. Thank you for sharing. I don't think I would guess that you guys care or want this sort of committed devotion as much as you actually do. It's so under the surface.

  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    a pitch
    a catch-
    hitched.

    an itch,
    a scratch-
    ditched.

    the rest
    is history,
    waiting
    to be fixed.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    I would correct this to:
    "THIS IS HOW IT IS <UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME> or <BASED ON ALL INFORMATION I CURRENTLY HAVE>."

    It's why I state things emphatically, so I sound sure to others... but as soon as you give me info that differs, I change my stance. The conclusion being drawn in the moment is very certain because it's very qualified -- but what changes is the information, and the new conclusion drawn is very certain based on the pool of data.

    Does that make sense?

    The Ti process is very sure of itself; it's the information that is the weak point. If information is changing rapidly, the conclusions can change rapidly.
    Yes! Incredibly emphatic. I think it was written somewhere that this is one of the reasons NFs annoy NTs... because we do not state what we believe as emphatically... and it seems we are wishy-washy. I wonder if I could argue that NTs are equally unsure, but unwilling to let people think that is the case.

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    It was a little of both. The realization that I was hurting people was an eye-opener after I was hurt myself several times in the same way. Selfish realization, I suppose. Meeting a person who was willing to fight ... really fight ... to keep me was an eye-opener as well. It was amazing to find a person who, after I screwed up, didn't just throw me away ... but rather fought to straighten me out and was there for me.




    Mind-boggling, isn't it?
    But that's one of the values of that approach.
    And it does mean a great deal.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    Maybe NTs are sure up to a point (like you said)... and NFs are unsure up to a point...

  8. #28
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post
    Hmm. Thank you for sharing. I don't think I would guess that you guys care or want this sort of committed devotion as much as you actually do. It's so under the surface.
    I'm a bit on the older side of the forum. It became more important for me in my 40's than it was in my 20's. It might be something that an INTP develops over time.

  9. #29
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    I think intimacy is tough for NT's in general as we're not so comfortable with the soft and squishy side of things. I regard emotions as this dark ocean of meaning and chthonic impulses that surges beneath the surface. Tapping into that by way of emotional congress with another is both exciting and terrifying.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post
    Maybe NTs are sure up to a point (like you said)... and NFs are unsure up to a point...
    Why? What's it feel like inside for you?

    (But remember, if you're ENFP, you're supposedly primarily Ne, using your values to support which possibilities you're chasing and following through on -- "What can I construct and implement in the world, when my values are true?" INFP is more about creating a value framework while constantly looking at potential options.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think intimacy is tough for NT's in general as we're not so comfortable with the soft and squishy side of things. I regard emotions as this dark ocean of meaning and chthonic impulses that surges beneath the surface. Tapping into that by way of emotional congress with another is both exciting and terrifying.
    The first person I fell in love with was an ESFJ.
    They were also the first person I violently rejected a few months later.

    There was a reason for that. Talk about "moth to flames." *shudder*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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