• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Te work that lacks the Ti logic

Cypocalypse

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
252
MBTI Type
eNtP
Enneagram
4w5/
INTPs often get accused of the lack of work or...the impracticality of the realm of knowledge that they're interested in.

But looking at things from the opposite spectrum...

Do any INTPs here feel that there are works that have been done by the TJs that lack fundamental logic or principles, but have still been done anyway, just for the sake of having something to work with per se?

You know, things that would make you say...

"What the hell? He is doing that? What for?"

Your Ti logic says that the line of work that the person does is fundamentally flawed and bound to fail, but your perceiving function doesn't have the J ego to say it straight to his face that what he's doing lack merits?
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
If it makes you feel any better, some TJs are smart enough to learn from TPs, but in my case I'm referring to my ISTP husband. Yes, his ideas are always a lot more practical than mine. No matter how good of a plan I come up with, once I present it to him, I know his tweaks will make it far superior, i.e. more efficient and practical, which in my opinion, is logical.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
...Do any INTPs here feel that there are works that have been done by the TJs that lack fundamental logic or principles, but have still been done anyway, just for the sake of having something to work with per se?

Of course.

It's the basic conflict between TP and TJ -- understanding vs acting.

The ExTJs are probably the worst violators for INTPs, since they take action first and just use their perceptions to support the acting. There's an ESTJ boss at work that drives everyone crazy; she knows little, but she's a pitbull in regards to maintaining the schedule she has developed, even if the schedule makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone (many of them TPs now that I think about it, although the NTJs are critical too) shares this conventional wisdom of her behavior.

Usually it's not even worth arguing with TJ, though, unless you have to. They learn by failing, not by being challenged by some wild-eyed TP ambassador of laziness and negativity (as far as they see it).
 

Economica

Dhampyr
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
2,054
MBTI Type
INTJ
It's the basic conflict between TP and TJ -- understanding vs acting.

(...)

Usually it's not even worth arguing with TJ, though, unless you have to. They learn by failing, not by being challenged by some wild-eyed TP ambassador of laziness and negativity (as far as they see it).

I know people who figure I'm as TJ as they come probably aren't going to believe this, but as I've become more openminded in the past two years I find I've also become more P in the respect you describe here, which to me sucks big-time! :doh:

Case in point: As of this writing, I should be working on a PhD application that I find myself hoping won't be accepted (here's why) - work lacking Ti logic, yes? I TJ reason with myself, recounting the rationale for putting together a strong application anyway, but it appears I simply cannot make myself do it. :(

Of course, there could be other explanations for my failure than having traded efficacy for openmindedness. Three likely ones are that I could be mentally blocked by perfectionism (having impossibly and unrealistically high standards for how good the application should be) and/or that the loneliness and anxiety of working completely alone when I'm not totally sure what I'm doing could be getting to me and/or that I could be using all of my mental energy just to digest the stress of the current chaos in several major areas of my life (finishing university and not having closure regarding my job situation, dating again after recently ending a 7-year LTR, having friendships in flux...). But it sure feels like I've morphed into an now-that-I've-figured-out-what-to-do-I-can't-be-bothered-to-actually-do-it shadow of an INTP. :BangHead:

I'll actually be seeing a psychologist about my inaction on Thursday. (My university offers free counselling for students who have problems with their studies.) Anyone want to take a bet regarding whether I can get through the one-hour session without mentioning MBTI? ;) I promise I'll be honest about how I do. :yes:

---

Disclaimer: No, I'm not seriously suggesting I'm now an INTP. :rolleyes: I just identify with the OP.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
INTPs often get accused of the lack of work or...the impracticality of the realm of knowledge that they're interested in.

But looking at things from the opposite spectrum...

Do any INTPs here feel that there are works that have been done by the TJs that lack fundamental logic or principles, but have still been done anyway, just for the sake of having something to work with per se?

You know, things that would make you say...

"What the hell? He is doing that? What for?"

Yes. Frequently.

Your Ti logic says that the line of work that the person does is fundamentally flawed and bound to fail, but your perceiving function doesn't have the J ego to say it straight to his face that what he's doing lack merits?

No. Have no problem telling folk their shit stinks.
 

Uytuun

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,633
MBTI Type
nnnn
But it sure feels like I've morphed into an now-that-I've-figured-out-what-to-do-I-can't-be-bothered-to-actually-do-it shadow of an INTP.

You and I both, you and I both. Inaction. I think it's Ni, you've been building it up so as to be more openminded and it's actually very not into getting things done at all. I'm at a similar stage in my life too. Also, perfectionism - yes.

Let's turn this into a self-help thread that has Te flowing everywhere!
 

Eldanen

Arcesso pulli gingerios!
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
697
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
My dad and I have issues with this sort of thing. As he lost his driver's license recently, I've had to chauffeur him everywhere. And I usually ask him questions about the places he wants to go, requesting reasons. He usually can't give me a reason :p. "I need to go here, here, and here!" "Oh really? Why? Is there a more efficient way to do it? Could we just go here, and here instead and wait until tomorrow to do the other thing?" "NO! I need to go to these places today, now!" "But it's better to do it like this. There's more reason to it."

Usually he can't come up with any reasoning and it just amounts to he WANTS to do it like he wants to do it, and everyone else can go fuck themselves. When I look at how he does things, it seems to me like he wastes a lot of time and energy by taking a longer route to the goal than I would. He also does things like placing huge amounts of papertowels on tables and on the countertop by the sink, leaving them there for days at a time unless I throw them away. In the fridge, you see how this activity could cause some major quick growth of bacteria. And yet he complains and thinks his actions are helping in some way.
 

Uytuun

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,633
MBTI Type
nnnn
I guess you can find logic in the fact that it takes more energy for us to come up with such a thoroughly logical line of reasoning than it does to follow a slightly non-optimal path. We also find it easier to stick to the plan than to alter it. And we don't tend to be very communicative about the plan.

I try to either adapt (because you do come up with handy stuff!) or tell Ti people that despite it being less efficient, I'm still going to do it my way (this only pertains to stuff that only pertains to me) because it's minor and it takes too much energy to adapt or consciously keep in mind. This makes for a serious WTF effect with them. :D I mostly get all "I want to do it because I want to do it" when I'm stressed-out and I have an end-goal in mind that I don't want anyone to fuck up.
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
I have found, generally, that life follows this rule:

Something done poorly is better than nothing done well.

Frustration is an emotional aspect, and unfortunately it tends to remain so. There are cases where Js can act way to fast, but almost all of their problems are resolved by more acting. A P wants to act all at once, from start to not-quite-the-end, but no one is able to plan sufficiently for that. A J is simply more adaptable in that situation, a strange reversal to the normal interpretation.

Frustration and rejection is the natural reaction - it probably is for almost any P vs J... but I always keep that line above in my head. There is a balance, but wherever that balance is, in practical terms it is strongly on the J side.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
My dad and I have issues with this sort of thing. As he lost his driver's license recently, I've had to chauffeur him everywhere. And I usually ask him questions about the places he wants to go, requesting reasons. He usually can't give me a reason :p. "I need to go here, here, and here!" "Oh really? Why? Is there a more efficient way to do it? Could we just go here, and here instead and wait until tomorrow to do the other thing?" "NO! I need to go to these places today, now!" "But it's better to do it like this. There's more reason to it."

Usually he can't come up with any reasoning and it just amounts to he WANTS to do it like he wants to do it, and everyone else can go fuck themselves. When I look at how he does things, it seems to me like he wastes a lot of time and energy by taking a longer route to the goal than I would. He also does things like placing huge amounts of papertowels on tables and on the countertop by the sink, leaving them there for days at a time unless I throw them away. In the fridge, you see how this activity could cause some major quick growth of bacteria. And yet he complains and thinks his actions are helping in some way.
Your dad is an INTJ?
I always try to take the most efficient route when doing errands.
I try to do the least amount of driving necessary.
 

Jack Flak

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
9,098
MBTI Type
type
Your dad is an INTJ?
I always try to take the most efficient route when doing errands.
I try to do the least amount of driving necessary.
Ti: "It doesn't matter if we get there on time. We're all gonna die someday, you know."
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
I have found, generally, that life follows this rule:

Something done poorly is better than nothing done well.

Frustration is an emotional aspect, and unfortunately it tends to remain so. There are cases where Js can act way to fast, but almost all of their problems are resolved by more acting. A P wants to act all at once, from start to not-quite-the-end, but no one is able to plan sufficiently for that. A J is simply more adaptable in that situation, a strange reversal to the normal interpretation.

Frustration and rejection is the natural reaction - it probably is for almost any P vs J... but I always keep that line above in my head. There is a balance, but wherever that balance is, in practical terms it is strongly on the J side.
Seeing that you are an ISTP, I'd like to comment because my husband is an ISTP.
One of the things I really admire about him is his way of being able to tackle a larger project in smaller pieces.
After working for several hours. but not not completing the job he will say, "That's a step in the right direction."
Since I tend to see the project as one whole thing - a usually overwhelming thing - I can get stuck in the "How in the world do I do this?" stage for a very long time.

Taking note of your "not-quite-the-end" comment: My husband tends to be great at tackling the big stuff but doesn't appear to like to do the finishing details, i.e. he replaced the flooring in the kitchen over 5 years ago, and has yet to replace the moulding. That's just one example. There have been plenty.
Actually, we make a good team because I would rather work on the finishing details than tackle the great big job.
It usually works out well, but I don't know how to do moulding.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
You know sometimes people just want to do things for no particular reason.
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
2,126
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
You know sometimes people just want to do things for no particular reason.

:devil:

thats how i know if am stressed or not. When Im doing things that i have no reason for doing, i know that i must really not be that worried about _____ project. It can be a positive feedback mechanism of sorts.

similarly if i find that im not having time for useless shit: it kicks me into military mode...as if it must be THAT bad. It puts me into this "mobolize mode" complete with timing my breaks with a kitchen twist around timer.
 

Eldanen

Arcesso pulli gingerios!
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
697
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Your dad is an INTJ?
I always try to take the most efficient route when doing errands.
I try to do the least amount of driving necessary.

My dad is SiTe.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
My dad is SiTe.
My ISTJ daughter has been pulling the same stuff with me.
She won't tell me anything or explain anything to me.

But my ISTJ mother always mapped out the most efficient way to do errands and made a list before she left the house.
I think she still does.

You dad may have an ulterior motive he is unwilling to share with you.
 

Eldanen

Arcesso pulli gingerios!
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
697
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
My ISTJ daughter has been pulling the same stuff with me.
She won't tell me anything or explain anything to me.

But my ISTJ mother always mapped out the most efficient way to do errands and made a list before she left the house.
I think she still does.

You dad may have an ulterior motive he is unwilling to share with you.

He really enjoys taking his sweet-ass time with whatever he does. But yeah, he is quite a reserved person and I as his son don't know much about his inner desires and attitudes. Of course, I've never really spoken to him that much either about my own. But I don't feel that we would really mesh in that way.

"Let's go to Wal-Mart."
Me, not wanting to have to go to such a big store when I was tired and wanted to go home: "Why not Food Lion?"
"No, Wal-Mart!"

Food Lion is of course a grocery store and Wal-Mart, here, is a supercenter.

I sometimes try explaining my reasoning to him to get him to budge and do what I want, but he just acts like a freaking brick.
 

Simplexity

New member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,741
MBTI Type
INTP
Haha I have an opt out clause in debates or arguments with my dad. I just use my Ti and English skills to be pedantic about English with him( english ain't his 1st language) I think its actually the cause of why I bullshit so much. I just go rapid fire though with my Ti and bask in the glory when i'm right and hes wrong.
 

Eldanen

Arcesso pulli gingerios!
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
697
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Haha I have an opt out clause in debates or arguments with my dad. I just use my Ti and English skills to be pedantic about English with him( english ain't his 1st language) I think its actually the cause of why I bullshit so much. I just go rapid fire though with my Ti and bask in the glory when i'm right and hes wrong.

That's usually what I do whenever I want to avoid talking with someone. Just fill them up with words until their head overloads, shuts down, or goes into another direction.
 
Top