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  1. #1
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Default Te work that lacks the Ti logic

    INTPs often get accused of the lack of work or...the impracticality of the realm of knowledge that they're interested in.

    But looking at things from the opposite spectrum...

    Do any INTPs here feel that there are works that have been done by the TJs that lack fundamental logic or principles, but have still been done anyway, just for the sake of having something to work with per se?

    You know, things that would make you say...

    "What the hell? He is doing that? What for?"

    Your Ti logic says that the line of work that the person does is fundamentally flawed and bound to fail, but your perceiving function doesn't have the J ego to say it straight to his face that what he's doing lack merits?

  2. #2
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    If it makes you feel any better, some TJs are smart enough to learn from TPs, but in my case I'm referring to my ISTP husband. Yes, his ideas are always a lot more practical than mine. No matter how good of a plan I come up with, once I present it to him, I know his tweaks will make it far superior, i.e. more efficient and practical, which in my opinion, is logical.

  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    ...Do any INTPs here feel that there are works that have been done by the TJs that lack fundamental logic or principles, but have still been done anyway, just for the sake of having something to work with per se?
    Of course.

    It's the basic conflict between TP and TJ -- understanding vs acting.

    The ExTJs are probably the worst violators for INTPs, since they take action first and just use their perceptions to support the acting. There's an ESTJ boss at work that drives everyone crazy; she knows little, but she's a pitbull in regards to maintaining the schedule she has developed, even if the schedule makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone (many of them TPs now that I think about it, although the NTJs are critical too) shares this conventional wisdom of her behavior.

    Usually it's not even worth arguing with TJ, though, unless you have to. They learn by failing, not by being challenged by some wild-eyed TP ambassador of laziness and negativity (as far as they see it).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's the basic conflict between TP and TJ -- understanding vs acting.

    (...)

    Usually it's not even worth arguing with TJ, though, unless you have to. They learn by failing, not by being challenged by some wild-eyed TP ambassador of laziness and negativity (as far as they see it).
    I know people who figure I'm as TJ as they come probably aren't going to believe this, but as I've become more openminded in the past two years I find I've also become more P in the respect you describe here, which to me sucks big-time!

    Case in point: As of this writing, I should be working on a PhD application that I find myself hoping won't be accepted (here's why) - work lacking Ti logic, yes? I TJ reason with myself, recounting the rationale for putting together a strong application anyway, but it appears I simply cannot make myself do it.

    Of course, there could be other explanations for my failure than having traded efficacy for openmindedness. Three likely ones are that I could be mentally blocked by perfectionism (having impossibly and unrealistically high standards for how good the application should be) and/or that the loneliness and anxiety of working completely alone when I'm not totally sure what I'm doing could be getting to me and/or that I could be using all of my mental energy just to digest the stress of the current chaos in several major areas of my life (finishing university and not having closure regarding my job situation, dating again after recently ending a 7-year LTR, having friendships in flux...). But it sure feels like I've morphed into an now-that-I've-figured-out-what-to-do-I-can't-be-bothered-to-actually-do-it shadow of an INTP.

    I'll actually be seeing a psychologist about my inaction on Thursday. (My university offers free counselling for students who have problems with their studies.) Anyone want to take a bet regarding whether I can get through the one-hour session without mentioning MBTI? I promise I'll be honest about how I do.

    ---

    Disclaimer: No, I'm not seriously suggesting I'm now an INTP. I just identify with the OP.

  5. #5
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    INTPs often get accused of the lack of work or...the impracticality of the realm of knowledge that they're interested in.

    But looking at things from the opposite spectrum...

    Do any INTPs here feel that there are works that have been done by the TJs that lack fundamental logic or principles, but have still been done anyway, just for the sake of having something to work with per se?

    You know, things that would make you say...

    "What the hell? He is doing that? What for?"
    Yes. Frequently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    Your Ti logic says that the line of work that the person does is fundamentally flawed and bound to fail, but your perceiving function doesn't have the J ego to say it straight to his face that what he's doing lack merits?
    No. Have no problem telling folk their shit stinks.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    But it sure feels like I've morphed into an now-that-I've-figured-out-what-to-do-I-can't-be-bothered-to-actually-do-it shadow of an INTP.
    You and I both, you and I both. Inaction. I think it's Ni, you've been building it up so as to be more openminded and it's actually very not into getting things done at all. I'm at a similar stage in my life too. Also, perfectionism - yes.

    Let's turn this into a self-help thread that has Te flowing everywhere!

  7. #7
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    My dad and I have issues with this sort of thing. As he lost his driver's license recently, I've had to chauffeur him everywhere. And I usually ask him questions about the places he wants to go, requesting reasons. He usually can't give me a reason :P. "I need to go here, here, and here!" "Oh really? Why? Is there a more efficient way to do it? Could we just go here, and here instead and wait until tomorrow to do the other thing?" "NO! I need to go to these places today, now!" "But it's better to do it like this. There's more reason to it."

    Usually he can't come up with any reasoning and it just amounts to he WANTS to do it like he wants to do it, and everyone else can go fuck themselves. When I look at how he does things, it seems to me like he wastes a lot of time and energy by taking a longer route to the goal than I would. He also does things like placing huge amounts of papertowels on tables and on the countertop by the sink, leaving them there for days at a time unless I throw them away. In the fridge, you see how this activity could cause some major quick growth of bacteria. And yet he complains and thinks his actions are helping in some way.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I guess you can find logic in the fact that it takes more energy for us to come up with such a thoroughly logical line of reasoning than it does to follow a slightly non-optimal path. We also find it easier to stick to the plan than to alter it. And we don't tend to be very communicative about the plan.

    I try to either adapt (because you do come up with handy stuff!) or tell Ti people that despite it being less efficient, I'm still going to do it my way (this only pertains to stuff that only pertains to me) because it's minor and it takes too much energy to adapt or consciously keep in mind. This makes for a serious WTF effect with them. I mostly get all "I want to do it because I want to do it" when I'm stressed-out and I have an end-goal in mind that I don't want anyone to fuck up.

  9. #9
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    I have found, generally, that life follows this rule:

    Something done poorly is better than nothing done well.

    Frustration is an emotional aspect, and unfortunately it tends to remain so. There are cases where Js can act way to fast, but almost all of their problems are resolved by more acting. A P wants to act all at once, from start to not-quite-the-end, but no one is able to plan sufficiently for that. A J is simply more adaptable in that situation, a strange reversal to the normal interpretation.

    Frustration and rejection is the natural reaction - it probably is for almost any P vs J... but I always keep that line above in my head. There is a balance, but wherever that balance is, in practical terms it is strongly on the J side.

  10. #10
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    My dad and I have issues with this sort of thing. As he lost his driver's license recently, I've had to chauffeur him everywhere. And I usually ask him questions about the places he wants to go, requesting reasons. He usually can't give me a reason :P. "I need to go here, here, and here!" "Oh really? Why? Is there a more efficient way to do it? Could we just go here, and here instead and wait until tomorrow to do the other thing?" "NO! I need to go to these places today, now!" "But it's better to do it like this. There's more reason to it."

    Usually he can't come up with any reasoning and it just amounts to he WANTS to do it like he wants to do it, and everyone else can go fuck themselves. When I look at how he does things, it seems to me like he wastes a lot of time and energy by taking a longer route to the goal than I would. He also does things like placing huge amounts of papertowels on tables and on the countertop by the sink, leaving them there for days at a time unless I throw them away. In the fridge, you see how this activity could cause some major quick growth of bacteria. And yet he complains and thinks his actions are helping in some way.
    Your dad is an INTJ?
    I always try to take the most efficient route when doing errands.
    I try to do the least amount of driving necessary.

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