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  1. #1
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Default INTP and Introverted Intuition (Ni)

    The cognitive process that's often associated with INTP is Ne, not so much with Ni. Do you believe this, or is this just a bias associated with some of the tests were taking?

    Consider come of the questions (possibly related to Ni) of the tests.

    Do you think in a linear manner?

    Well, I don't. My mind works forward, sometimes backwards. Heck, sometimes, it even pauses; zooms in, then zooms out, roates 360 degrees like the camera in the Matrix, but sure thing it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't understand linear. Judging things simply from a narrow tunneled cause and effect principle would be limiting.

    Do you foresee visions of the future?

    Hell no, I wouldn't be so damn arrogant and say that I'm a prophet, but as I've said, I do understand basic cause-and-effect, but not so much to audaciously say that I'm a visionary.

    _______________

    Well, it doesn't mean that if I'm not so much of a Te masochist, it doesn't necessarily mean that I don't understand implications. By Te logic, since it's the implementation function, it should be associated with Ni, which is the eventuality of the work of the Te, decided by the J function.

    Come to think of it, being an INTP myself, which looks at various courses of actions, hence looking at gazillions of possible implications, wouldn't that mean that my Ni is considerably used to a certain extent?

    Not to mention that being an INTP who sees implications in gray hues (unlike a polarized black and white in the J function), wouldn't that mean a more multi-faceted view of the Ni?

  2. #2

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    I typed myself ENTP for years but I'm too much Te/Ni to be that. And, I'm out of my mind but I'm really J when it comes down to it.

    So.... I wouldn't know!. Sorrys.
    bruised and battered ENTJ sx/sp/so 8w9
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  3. #3
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Default

    For those with Ne very strong, Ni is usually the "almost, but not quite there" function as far as understanding what the function is talking about.

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It seems that people usually possess a bit of both the introverted and extroverted variations of the function.

    My instinct in the past has been that Ni can greatly conflict with Ti thinking.

    Ti operates by particular laws of logic.
    It has to establish basic assumptions about the laws of reality before it can then operate effectively.
    (INTPs are also notorious for asking for the definitions of terms and making clear the basic assumptions of an argument that could derail the conclusion.)

    Ni undermines assumptions.
    It says, "You can look at anything from an undefined number of angles and each one can still be right in its own way."
    Thus for Ni reality is determined not by a logical assess coming from established rules of truth but from one's personal choice of which paradigm (or "set of eyeglasses") through which to view the world at the time, based at best on the goal that needs to be accomplished.

    Ti is much more effective when it is using Ne like a retriever dog to run out and bring back things to incorporate into the inner model.
    Te is more effective if Ne isn't constantly undermining its attempts to finalize a process or project and is instead using Ni to determine the original direction and what should be created in the first place.

    Ti and Ni interfere with each other by nature.

    I have a high Ni. When my Ni really become prominent, it devastated me because everything I had formulated as true in my world I realized was not necessarily true, it was just one particular interpretation. It's hard to maintain a Ti primary when Ni is there saying, "Yes, the logic follows... but your assumptions are just assumptions."

    I've sort of had to learn to let them work hand-in-hand, each with its own place.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I think the use of Ne is more obvious in the intp as it is sometimes tried to be understood.

    If you take Jack for example in the forums. He claims to be Ti Ni, but there are less topics he cant comment something on. I guess the use of Ne actually implies the intrest to grasp the world in a way to understand what it truly is. As compared to an Introverted Perceiving function, actual existing things can be bend, personalized and be understood somewhat different.

    It is no indication for Ni, if see some things different. For example, if you think your nose is soo big and makes your whole face ugly. But it is an indication for Ne, if you want to find out, if that actually is the truth by trying out your nose on other people, you change your mind in the end, because you have discovered a new truth.

    So the main difference between Ne and Ni would be, in my opinion that the Ne tends to question everything, while the Ni is more inclined to leave things alone he does not understand or created a personal view of things that can contradict reality, while he is able to excel at his topic's of intrest more rapidly, because he has a selective view of things and concentrates on it, not taking in other options.

    For example, if I build a circuit and there is a chip on it, I know how to connect to the circuit. I would be done here. But instead, I will explore, how the chip works, will read its datasheet, will look at his internal structure, will dig deeper into who it was created. Will read a book about nanotechnology and get intrested in quantummechanics in the process. Will forget to eat and eventually starve to death. And then eventually after 3 or 4 months, I will solder the chip onto the circuit.

    So Ne really works on a constant basis longing to understand everything, see the relations behind anything, while Ni is more focussed and works in its focus, nearly exactly as Ne.

    The main disadvantages of Ne compared to Ni are obvious. The main disadvantage to Ne can be that it never excels in a lesson good enough, to become a master of it, due to lack of concentration or focus.

    I can pretty much understand any intp, who thinks he has Ni. But in my opinion you are plainly wrong. Ti is a mighty function and Ne in its shadow is shallow at best. That is not to be underestimated. But you intp's use Ne all the time. You have the same basic intrest to understand the world, how it really is and works and it would be a awful pain in the ass to you, if someone tells you via astrology, how your day will be (Mastered Introverted Perception), you will be eager to learn about the facts and the things that are for real and bravely take in new things for consideration and search for new relations; you will try to understand the whole world and how it really is. But the process will be slow and selectively due to Ti. You will focus on things and try to grasp them to their fullest potential before moving on to new things. Your energy is limited but highly focussed. And distractions in the process, will be taken in and eventually dealt with, if they do not cost you too much power.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I think the use of Ne is more obvious in the intp as it is sometimes tried to be understood.
    I agree that both of the Pe functions (Se and Ne) bring with them a specific focus on collecting evidence in the external world and constructing a reality from them.

    Thomson's description of how Ti works during a baseball game is pretty apropos -- it's all about capturing data (REAL data) in real time and constructing a moving model of the world at that moment, using it to project models into near-future moments.

    Hence, the "assess" and "understand" bent for IxTP. You want the model to be accurate and your model is constructed from the current data stream. You are trying to understand and replicate... and maybe, if you HAVE to do something, you apply the knowledge to the external world... but you're constantly still adjusting your application to the incoming data flow.

    Types who focus on Pi functions (Si and Ni) do not do that, they take their internal data source and impose it on reality, then use the impact of their actions on the world to perhaps adjust their technique.

    Someone on a different forum yesterday said they couldn't understand how an INTP could also be a staunch baptist. I'm inclined to agree. the Ti+Ne data collection process is in contrast to the Pi "revelation" approach to reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    It is no indication for Ni, if see some things different. For example, if you think your nose is soo big and makes your whole face ugly. But it is an indication for Ne, if you want to find out, if that actually is the truth by trying out your nose on other people, you change your mind in the end, because you have discovered a new truth.
    True. Ni doesn't really care, as long as the pattern is coherent in some way to either impersonal truth or personal values. But as you say, Ne is being used by Ji to judge the EXTERNAL (thus "objective") truth apart from the person's subjective framework.

    So when someone says, "My nose is too big," my first tendency is to say, "Is it, REALLY?" and then mentally assess whether or not it is by mentally juxtaposing it on other people's faces. That is the instinct, I don't even think about it, I just do it... it's my testing of their assumption.

    The second instinct, the more conscious reaction that follows, is to say, "regardless of whether it is or not, they FEEL it is... and it's causing them to have <these issues/reactions> and is this frame productive in terms of reaching a positive conclusion?"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I guess to really understand Ni it is best to see it being used in the real world. Sometimes Ni dominants say things, especially NJ's that are said like they are the truth. But when you hear them saying it, it somewhat pisses you off, because the things they said COULD BE seen completly differently. And that is when Ne is working. If you take-in the possibilities and relations.

    If you actually TRY to understand the real world. Beautiful questions emerge from this and beautiful ideas. Like the theory of relativity or the question "does red really look red" ?

    You intp's should not put your light in such a bad shape by denying you the use of Ne. In the end it is the function that fuels beautiful minds and it's only difference according to Ni is only to understand the whole world as it really is. And not to leave open spots or questionable analysis on things you are less fond of behind.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I guess to really understand Ni it is best to see it being used in the real world. Sometimes Ni dominants say things, especially NJ's that are said like they are the truth. But when you hear them saying it, it somewhat pisses you off, because the things they said COULD BE seen completly differently. And that is when Ne is working. If you take-in the possibilities and relations.
    True.

    Possibly if I am a little off on my past thinking, then that would help explain why despite their ability to see various perspectives, INxJ people have the ability to upset me because they sound adamant and opinionated by strongly expressing one view.

    I immediately challenge those statements internally -- "No, it could be that ... OR it could be this, this, or THIS" -- and immediately I have a checklist in my head of the weak points of the perspective and what steps can be taken to confirm or disprove them.

    ..."Does red really look red" ?
    Yup. Love ya. Geek.

    You intp's should not put your light in such a bad shape by denying you the use of Ne. In the end it is the function that fuels beautiful minds and it's only difference according to Ni is only to understand the whole world as it really is...
    True. It could explain why transformation is something I resist until I confirm the direction to not be just a whim or convenient but something inherently intrinsic -- i.e., "reality" -- to someone. But I dread imposing a preference on reality, it has always been instinctive for reality to drive my preferences. And I can't change my preferences until my sense of reality has changed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Here's what I always thought was the difference between Ne and Ni.

    Ne: Thinks outside of the box.
    Ni: Creates a new box.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  10. #10
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Just experienced a nice example regarding "Introverted Perception". There are others functions playing into this, but I think it overall builds on an introverted gathered information.

    I was invited yesterday to a birthday party on friday evening. My INFJ girlfriend now is pissed, because we wont see each other today on friday (what was not planned). She herself is invited to a birthday party on saturday, where she will go to and planned in my absence that I am going to see her on friday then.

    There are, as I said, different functions playing here, but it is a good example concerning Ni likes to bend reality.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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