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Thread: INFJ and ENFP relationship

  1. #41
    The Memes Justify the End Array EcK's Avatar
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    The J/P split is probably the biggest difference between types.
    To go back to baking T / F is akin to someone baking cakes while focusing on the people who are going to eat it (themselves-fi or others-fe) while an another baker will tend to focus on the technical side of the cake itself first in his or her process (T). E and I is a quantitative difference, same functions but different order and levels of priority of different parts of the baking and of its extended context.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Array pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but that's not Fi. I care about people just the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    The J/P split is probably the biggest difference between types.
    To go back to baking T / F is akin to someone baking cakes while focusing on the people who are going to eat it (themselves-fi or others-fe) while an another baker will tend to focus on the technical side of the cake itself first in his or her process (T). E and I is a quantitative difference, same functions but different order and levels of priority of different parts of the baking and of its extended context.

  3. #43
    The Memes Justify the End Array EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'm sorry but that's not Fi. I care about people just the same.
    Yeah I thought about being more precise there. But enough of me. Would you want to share your outlook with us ?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #44
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    These codes are in a lot of ways dependent on circumstances, so it’s hard to talk about them in ways that will apply to every or most circumstances. But some general things are that it depends on are how close you are to the other person and what kind of information is being talked about in the Te-message. For instance, if the Te message is about things that are impersonal (such as a discussion on whether the current version of American English or the current version of British English is closer to the way British English was back in the 1700s), then you’re talking to the INFJ’s NiTi instead of Fe. (I feel like the rules/codes and how this all works will be a bit different for non-INFJ Fe-users, but I’ll speak from this perspective because that’s the one that I have the most knowledge about—hopefully most of what I’m saying will have some value in regards to other Fe-users as well.) This is I think where what Z Buck McFate was saying comes into play the most, in that it can feel like the Te message is demanding that we think a certain way when it speaks in definitive terms. If you want to soften that, try using terms like “I think,” “I believe,” “In my opinion,” “It seems like.” I understand that most of the time, the person using Te is expecting that if the other person disagrees that they will just say so, but I second the stadium blowhorn analogy in that it’s hard to have a discussion with a message that feels like that.
    Yeah, the little ‘imo’ disclaimers are incredibly helpful in reminding me that it’s not like you’re trying to law down THE LAW.

    I noticed when EW first posted the question about this, and I’ve had a hard time figuring out how to nutshell it too. I suppose my primary suggestion would be to ask questions/try to understand when it seems like someone is throwing something ‘unimportant’ into the convo before outright dismissing it as something that only interferes with the point you’re trying to make or the goal you’re trying to achieve. It’s one thing to understand what the other person is trying to communicate and to have the opinion that it doesn’t really apply (because then you can effectively explain the conflict you have with it), and it’s another thing to simply dismiss it because you don’t understand and it seems like a waste of time to bother trying- it just ‘clearly seems’ unimportant.

    I think what Orobas refers to as ‘Fe nudges’ can be the same as Te steamrolling- that while they’re meant to be helpful, meant as suggestions to grease the wheels of social interaction to get things done/moving, they can actually be far more distracting than they are helpful because if they’re chocked full of Fi ‘violations’- it can send Fi into a tailspin of its own tangents, it’s hard to adhere to the directive nature of the nudges because all sorts of “but…” thoughts come up and *seem* too important to ignore. And just like I suspect one of the least productive things a Fe’er can do in such a situation is to get frustrated with a Fi’er for ‘talking a bunch of nonsense’, that applies to Te/Ti as well. Fe does it to expedite a state of ‘harmony’, and it can get lost in producing the ‘appearance’ of harmony and become counterproductive because it does not produce actual harmony amongst the individuals involved. When a Fe’er can make the effort to incorporate those details which *seem* important to the individuals involved, THAT is when it expedites an actual harmony that can be appreciated by a much wider range of people.

    It’s an easy trap for Te or Fe to fall into- to make an assumption that whatever isn’t easily understandable or can’t be immediately and easily integrated in what has been said doesn’t apply to the situation and should be disregarded, and they’ll simply attempt to explain why it should be disregarded (if not ignoring it altogether) before even trying to incorporate it. This is the part that gets overwhelming- when someone demonstrates a knee-jerk reaction to consistently and automatically dismiss any contribution on my part that they can’t immediately understand or make sense of. I can tell when someone is trying to understand- they’ll ask how what I said applies to the problem at hand, or maybe ask me why they should give it any urgency, etc. But if someone has demonstrated the consistent habit of telling me, in so many words or suggestive actions, that what I’m saying is ‘beside the point’ without even understanding how it applies- then it’s like they’re simply blasting me with their own opinion stadium blow-horn style.

    TJs who are doing this will tend to just repeat what they said a little more forcefully, as if what you’re saying has nothing to do with what they said- sometimes adding insults to vent their frustration at ‘not being heard’ (often oblivious to how they aren’t hearing the other person themselves). FPs, on the other hand, will persist by schmoozing- they’ll repeat what they said but they’ll tack on reasons for why the other person shouldn’t try to incorporate the ‘nonsense’/’excuses’/whatever into what is being said (but those ‘reasons’ won’t actually address what the Ti’er has said- they’re reasons for why the Ti’er should stop trying to say it). Both are attempts at drowning out another person’s input to expedite their own expectations/argument.

    The key difference- between attempting to take the other person’s input into account and simply impulsively trying to drown that person’s input out- is whether or not that person can relate back to me (or if they’re even *trying* to relate back) the argument I’m presenting. If they can relate my argument back to me in a way that proves they understand, then- even if they still want to argue it shouldn’t be given urgency- at least I feel like they’re taking my input into account. But if they just give me a blank stare and re-assert their initial position over and over again, then I get frustrated and assume they’re not even trying to understand how what I’m saying fits into the picture: they simply want to be heard and have no intention of making the effort to hear anything in return.

    So . I guess, ask questions if you don’t understand someone’s response, don’t assume it’s a bunch of gobbledy-gook which interferes with productivity. I mean- sure, the Fi/Ti end of this sort of conflict can err as well and selfishly want to go down it’s own path with little or no regard for ‘expediting harmony’ or for ‘getting things done’…..but it’s not safe to assume that is what’s going on any time someone is trying to introduce ‘nonsense’ into the discussion. Both sides of this have something that *seems* important, and the extent to which a person is willing to incorporate the other person’s experience of something seeming ‘important’ is the extent to which they’re willing to find common ground- and people do pick up on this. Attempts at understanding the Ji perspective will be recognized (and appreciated) by those who really want to find common ground. And just like Fi’ers can sort of feel like their transmissions are getting jammed by having some Fe’er impose an ‘appearance of harmony’ (<- which might feel like genuine harmony to that Fe’er, but will seriously lack that same benevolence for the Fi’er) on them because it doesn’t take their experience into account, if a Ti’er can’t raise issues that *seem* important (however unimportant they may seem to Te) then interaction becomes distracting and even overwhelming.

    I really have no idea how common this particular conflict is between INFJ and ENFP, per se (bringing this back to op). I do know that I worked with an ESFP nurse who drove me crazy with it- she’d try to schmooze her way out of listening to any feedback I had to give, when I’d try to point out a problem, and I consistently felt like she never listened to me.
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  5. #45
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    Default Thinking outloud

    My dad is an INFJ type, and I could not have asked for a more amazing father. I know that it is not uncommon for females to look for a partner similar to their father, and vice versa for males, but my father always knows the perfect thing to say, and I do feel that we are often on the same wavelength. So, I have come to the conclusion that another INFJ personality type would work well with my ENFP type; however, I am slightly discouraged and saddened by how rare the INFJ type is. As one site (http://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/infj/) states that INFJ types make up about .5% of the male population and are the most rare of all the types.

    I just got out of a relationship with an INTJ type. Though we worked well together in many ways, his constant criticisms of others really got to me. Being a people-loving ENFP, I try to see the best in people, whereas my ex would often focus on the negative aspects of people’s personalities and voice his judgments so readily. He also struggled with giving other people credit and had difficulty appreciating individual uniqueness and talent. One area that I also feel that we clashed is that I am a spontaneous, social ENFP, and he is the strategist—always needing and wanting to plan things out—which I feel may have subconsciously scared me and made me push away quite a bit.

    I know my ex thinks that I am selfish and that I have a lot of growing up to do. He is not wrong in this assessment, but he believes that my faults lie in wanting to find a “clone” of myself and not being willing to work on our differences. For me, this is not so much a fault, but a desire to find someone that I really mesh well with, as opposed to someone who is so completely different—to the point where it feels emotionally taxing just to accept our individual differences. I feel that another NF type would be a better match, since they also are intuitive and feeling, which means, to me, that they relate to others better than INTJs. I don’t mean to put INTJs down (by any means), but one thing that I did note was how many of the INTJ personality people (whether real or fictional) are antagonists. I am such a people-person. Empathy and compassion are such high values of mine that I find it difficult to be with someone who struggles with empathizing. I am sorry for the loss of the prospects of our relationship and I do value the importance of balance in life and in relationships; however, perhaps I am too biased or unable to look past these differences, but I feel that, despite his willingness and desire to make the relationship work, this is just who he is. I cannot change him, and even the desire to change him into someone more like me is not a good thing. Perhaps, I do want someone more like myself. Is this emotional/mental immaturity or is it perfectly reasonable to want a partner who has similar interpersonal skills and views?

  6. #46
    Senior Member Array SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I noticed when EW first posted the question about this, and I’ve had a hard time figuring out how to nutshell it too. I suppose my primary suggestion would be to ask questions/try to understand when it seems like someone is throwing something ‘unimportant’ into the convo before outright dismissing it as something that only interferes with the point you’re trying to make or the goal you’re trying to achieve. It’s one thing to understand what the other person is trying to communicate and to have the opinion that it doesn’t really apply (because then you can effectively explain the conflict you have with it), and it’s another thing to simply dismiss it because you don’t understand and it seems like a waste of time to bother trying- it just ‘clearly seems’ unimportant.
    Yes!! It’s really frustrating when it feels like it’s not even considered. Good points in the rest of your post too!

    This makes me think about how I used to notice that Fi users would sometimes seem like they would have something to say but then they would not say it. And I would think to myself, “Why don’t you say it?”. But now I get it better as to why if I think about it as an analogy with Te/Ti. Ti just isn’t as easy to put into words as Te is. Even if it looks absolutely clear in my head, trying to externalize it is an effort. And if the person using Te has a different goal than the person using Ti, and they sound so definitive and not inviting of an oppositional opinion (I know this is normally not the case in actuality, I’m just saying in the moment what it seems if I’m not thinking about it), then I sometimes feel like just not saying anything at all because it’ll be too much effort because I have to try to break down the obstacle of having different goals and them being able to say what they’re trying to say at a quicker pace than me, and it’s also hard in the first place to externalize what I’m trying to say.

    If I think about Fe/Fi as an analogy to this, it makes sense why Fi-users sometimes just decide not to bother speaking even if inside their heads it makes perfect sense and they feel like they have a valid point to make. So that’s another thing for a person who’s using Fe or Te to take into consideration in a discussion, that the Fi/Ti person cannot speak as quickly/eloquently about what they want to say, and it doesn’t mean that they have nothing to say (or nothing of value to say).
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    My personal experience: First of all, there is nothing that will make me go more knobby knocker in the knees than a warm-blooded, heterosexual INFJ male. (Too bad you INFJ males are so damn rare.)
    Wow! Reading this makes me wish I knew more female ENFPs! I sure don't think I know too many of them. Oh well...I'm moving to NYC. Guessing there will be some ENFPs there.

    From my experience: Female ENFPs are usually extremely hot, and therefore I tend to think they're going to be stuck up, as many attractive (extroverted) women are (no offense to anyone this may apply to, you're probably an exception). But then they're actually friendly and it surprises the sh!t out of me most of the time, which I believe has been at most two times in my life.
    A hero is someone who does the right thing without expectation of reward, just because it's the right thing to do.

  8. #48
    i love Array skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I do know that I worked with an ESFP nurse who drove me crazy with it- she’d try to schmooze her way out of listening to any feedback I had to give, when I’d try to point out a problem, and I consistently felt like she never listened to me.
    Thanks for your whole post, it's really chock-full of good information and reasoning. I think especially what you said about Fi/Ti being hard to verbalize is really important - especially in the pressuring presence of another's Fe or Te, it can just not feel worth it to translate those things into external words.

    As for this little tidbit - I think my INTP dad and I have run across this before. When he would criticize me in his Fe-Ti way, it would feel hurtful and pointless (because he didn't coddle Fi and the Ti issue always seemed minute or convoluted), and I would try to explain to him why I did or was doing what I did (because that makes sense in Fi/Te - you explain your external logic and internal motivation to get the other person to understand your intention) - and he would always say I was trying to divert attention from the fact that I messed up. Which wasn't true at all - I just wanted him to understand why I had been doing what I was doing, and he never seemed to care - he thought I was arguing with him (I guess the Te comes off pretty strong). And I had trouble understanding his Ti-things, too. It usually seemed like there was an easier Te-way to take care of them.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Array pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    oh. i actually wanted to reply to you but i had lost track of what thread it was.
    the dif with Fi and Fe is really at the depth level. An Fe user looks at the outward expression of emotions, an Fi user looks at the cause. But both types can be equally emotional or attentive to other people's emotions.
    And this is also why I like to surround myself with Fe people. Although I can't use Fe (it makes me feel false), it's good to have some balance and have the other person be less "heavy" with the analysis of emotions (yeah, since Fi users look deeper, I think they're also "heavier").
    But anyways, my best friends in the world are INFJs. I adore them to pieces. I didn't know there was a problem in this relationship.

    Oh, another thing. I don't find that J/P is the biggest difference between types. J/P is only a question of orientation of cognitive functions, but everyone has judging cognitive functions and perceiving cognitive functions. The biggest difference I find is between N and S.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah I thought about being more precise there. But enough of me. Would you want to share your outlook with us ?

  10. #50
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    I am an INFJ. The only people who fall "in love" me are ENFPs, though ENTPs really like me a lot. One of them is a bit overwhelming with his feelings. It doesn't help that he amasses 40 new friends every time he goes out and is very attractive - I'm a very private person and I see both of these things as a huge liability. I've been betrayed before and I just can't go through that again. I pushed him away a long time ago and he got really hurt (I felt horrible about it), but now he's back and trying not to overwhelm but still he just does.

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