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[MBTI General] Wanting people to get their comeuppance

G

Glycerine

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LOL. Yeah, I have an INFP daughter and if she's going to get, you it's going to right when you tick her off.

She is in middle school and as she was getting off the bus one day, she saw a kid picking on an autistic acquaintance of hers. She flew off the bus and ran up to the kid and kicked him in the shin and that was pretty much the end of that.
LOL, I must say you have an awesome daughter then.
 

Arclight

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Apparently this arises for me occasionally out of an offended sense of justice. Or just a desire to see others suffer. :D

I'm unlikely to do anything much about it, but if someone has really hurt my feelings, offended me, wronged me in an extremely serious way (which probably involved a lot of ongoing unacceptable behaviour), it drives me nuts if they then go on their merry way and seem to be perfectly happy and getting everything they've always wanted out of life. (If they have managed to offend me that much there is usually strong evidence to suggest that they have managed to do the same to others, so it might not be just about me.)

There's part of me that would just like to see them get zapped by karma or something similar. Some people say to me that people who behave really badly will always reap what they sow, but sometimes it takes time.

Do you have any comments on your experience with these type of feelings, their validity, how you can defuse them etc?

Seriously, if I were a really vengeful person and willing to do something about it, there are a few people I've known who I might have done something really nasty to by now! :shock:

You know everybody is fighting some kind of battle inside ..Maybe something you did set them off in the 1st place??
There isn't always a relation to how someone treated you and how they treat others.
Perhaps their behavior toward you was just "karma" being reaped on you for some perceived misdeed by you from another.

Being hurt and shitkicked by people and life myself.. I would not wish it anyone else..even if they deserve it.
Still I will not deny a certain pleasure in the light of some poetic justice being served up to an asshole who had/has it coming.:blush:
 

SilkRoad

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You know everybody is fighting some kind of battle inside ..Maybe something you did set them off in the 1st place??
There isn't always a relation to how someone treated you and how they treat others.
Perhaps their behavior toward you was just "karma" being reaped on you for some perceived misdeed by you from another.

Being hurt and shitkicked by people and life myself.. I would not wish it anyone else..even if they deserve it.
Still I will not deny a certain pleasure in the light of some poetic justice being served up to an asshole who had/has it coming.:blush:

I don't really believe in "karma" per se. I've been using it more as an expression here. I have a strong belief generally in "you reap what you sow"...but it doesn't always seem to work that way.

Sometimes you do bring it on yourself to a certain extent. But if you try to make amends, doesn't that count for anything? In the personal example I referred to earlier, I made a mistake (involving gossip) which rebounded on another person. However, that other person had gossiped to me in the first place. So basically we had made the same mistake, but they tried to pile all the guilt and the blame for the situation (which also involved a couple of other people who most certainly were at fault) on me. I tried to make amends (for one thing, by being honest with them about where the situation stood) and they basically dismissed my attempts at resolution and closure and healing of the friendship. They later told me that things were ok but in the same breath told me they were still annoyed. They also said "let's forget about it" but then walked away from me knowing that I had wanted to discuss things further for peace of mind and real resolution. We've had no contact since then, which is partly because they're away, but we would have kept in touch under normal circumstances.

So yes, I did bring that on myself to a certain extent, but I tried to make amends. And the blame was certainly shared, or should have been. And the person has not shown care for my feelings or the friendship subsequently. When I said I was upset about their reaction, they gave me a superficial apology and in the same breath said they didn't understand what I had to be upset about.

This just seems to me like a larger pattern where a person like this cannot accept responsibility, has to unload guilt onto another, and doesn't care who they hurt in the process. I am unlikely to be the only one who ends up on the receiving end. And it would be better for me to just chalk it up to their lack of character, acknowledge both my own mistakes and my efforts to do the right thing to mend the situation, and move on. But that offended sense of justice is pissed off that (as far as I know) they are no longer bothered by the situation, or by my withdrawal of friendship, and they're off having fun.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I have one serious scenario in which the person caused extreme harm, intended almost infinite harm, and has gone on to win awards and make a lot of money, etc.

I would never trade places, though. I really believe that on some deep level the logic that equates the treatment of self and others impacts a person. Having consciousness from one single vantage point of self is not a rational reason to measure self as different from others. If self has a reason to live and be treated well, then it only makes sense that an equivalent being would share that reason. A person who exploits others for self gain has to possess a self-loathing on some level, even if subconsciously. There is a way that people pay for their harm even if not externally apparent.

And if this isn't enough there is always the hope that they will come back as a slug.
 

KLessard

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These situations have taught me what forgiveness really is all about and led me to more and more victory over bitterness.
"Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good." -Jesus
Do something kind to that person, just to see. Love your enemy. Examine yourself as well. Have you had any part to play in what took place?
 

Arclight

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I don't really believe in "karma" per se. I've been using it more as an expression here. I have a strong belief generally in "you reap what you sow"...but it doesn't always seem to work that way.

Sometimes you do bring it on yourself to a certain extent. But if you try to make amends, doesn't that count for anything? In the personal example I referred to earlier, I made a mistake (involving gossip) which rebounded on another person. However, that other person had gossiped to me in the first place. So basically we had made the same mistake, but they tried to pile all the guilt and the blame for the situation (which also involved a couple of other people who most certainly were at fault) on me. I tried to make amends (for one thing, by being honest with them about where the situation stood) and they basically dismissed my attempts at resolution and closure and healing of the friendship. They later told me that things were ok but in the same breath told me they were still annoyed. They also said "let's forget about it" but then walked away from me knowing that I had wanted to discuss things further for peace of mind and real resolution. We've had no contact since then, which is partly because they're away, but we would have kept in touch under normal circumstances.

So yes, I did bring that on myself to a certain extent, but I tried to make amends. And the blame was certainly shared, or should have been. And the person has not shown care for my feelings or the friendship subsequently. When I said I was upset about their reaction, they gave me a superficial apology and in the same breath said they didn't understand what I had to be upset about.

This just seems to me like a larger pattern where a person like this cannot accept responsibility, has to unload guilt onto another, and doesn't care who they hurt in the process. I am unlikely to be the only one who ends up on the receiving end. And it would be better for me to just chalk it up to their lack of character, acknowledge both my own mistakes and my efforts to do the right thing to mend the situation, and move on. But that offended sense of justice is pissed off that (as far as I know) they are no longer bothered by the situation, or by my withdrawal of friendship, and they're off having fun.

I was being pretty tongue in cheek. So I apologize if I seemed a bit harsh.. I forget that I am relatively new here and people don't know my sense of humor or sense of irony.

The bold part..
Being in a similar situation effect wise (With an INFJ no less) Who is to say the having fun or the devil may care attitude is not farcical in itself.?? I certainly am hurt and bothered by the withdrawal of friendship. But I can admit and assure you.. the having fun or not caring part is completely calculated. If they cannot share the blame and only want to show anger .. why should I appear vulnerable?
 

SilkRoad

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These situations have taught me what forgiveness really is all about and led me to more and more victory over bitterness.
"Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good." -Jesus
Do something kind to that person, just to see. Love your enemy. Examine yourself as well. Have you had any part to play in what took place?

Yeah, this is what I should be striving for, as I'm a Christian... It's a very tough area for me, though.

Self-examination and acknowledging my own mistakes, while often painful, is not really all that difficult for me. But not resenting the other person, that is difficult.
 

SilkRoad

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I was being pretty tongue in cheek. So I apologize if I seemed a bit harsh.. I forget that I am relatively new here and people don't know my sense of humor or sense of irony.

The bold part..
Being in a similar situation effect wise (With an INFJ no less) Who is to say the having fun or the devil may care attitude is not farcical in itself.?? I certainly am hurt and bothered by the withdrawal of friendship. But I can admit and assure you.. the having fun or not caring part is completely calculated. If they cannot share the blame and only want to show anger .. why should I appear vulnerable?

No worries, I wasn't offended at all by your first post. :)

In the situation with the INFJ, do you feel like explaining a bit more? Is it the INFJ who is not willing to accept responsibility and who seems to be off having fun? I didn't quite get that from your post.
 

KLessard

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But not resenting the other person, that is difficult.

I know what you mean. :hug:
I have come to see forgiveness as learning to see the offender the way you did before the offense took place. Which doesn't mean to be naïve. Jesus still asked Peter three times: "Peter, do you love me?"
 

burymecloser

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NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.

Those of you who do want people to get their comeuppance, do you think that's more about justice or revenge? I know it's a thin line sometimes, but to me justice implies a dispassionate if/then proposition (this person committed X crime, and therefore must suffer X consequence), whereas revenge is more personal (this person hurt my family/friend/self and so I want to hurt them).

One is cold-hearted and from the head, while the other is passionate and from the heart. I'm sure Fs and Ts are capable of both reactions, but I would expect more Ts than Fs to be attracted to the former, and more Fs than Ts to the latter.

Are you more interested in the global or the local? I remember asking an INFJ friend a hypothetical question: if you accidentally killed someone, ran them over with a truck or something -- someone has to die -- who would you want it to be that you had removed from this world? I chose a dictator who had committed human rights abuses and the INFJ chose an old enemy from school. Don't know whether that's illustrative or merely anecdotal, but I'd be interested in people's opinions.
 

Biaxident

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NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.

Forgiveness, to a point. After that, I'll be actively looking for ways to make you wish you hadn't been born. And I won't lose any sleep.

Believe it. :coffee:

It's only happened once, and I didn't have to do anything except ignore her. She had a stroke. Karma is a bitch. ;)
 

SilkRoad

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NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.

Those of you who do want people to get their comeuppance, do you think that's more about justice or revenge? I know it's a thin line sometimes, but to me justice implies a dispassionate if/then proposition (this person committed X crime, and therefore must suffer X consequence), whereas revenge is more personal (this person hurt my family/friend/self and so I want to hurt them).

One is cold-hearted and from the head, while the other is passionate and from the heart. I'm sure Fs and Ts are capable of both reactions, but I would expect more Ts than Fs to be attracted to the former, and more Fs than Ts to the latter.

Are you more interested in the global or the local? I remember asking an INFJ friend a hypothetical question: if you accidentally killed someone, ran them over with a truck or something -- someone has to die -- who would you want it to be that you had removed from this world? I chose a dictator who had committed human rights abuses and the INFJ chose an old enemy from school. Don't know whether that's illustrative or merely anecdotal, but I'd be interested in people's opinions.

My take on this would be that an NF in pain is in SO MUCH pain that they have to lash out. And also, the offended sense of justice, which is a big thing for us.

To me it is about justice, not revenge. I’m not just saying that to make myself sound better. :D I don’t really like the idea of revenge – on the basis of my beliefs, and also, I don’t like hurting other people even when they’ve hurt me. It’s more the feeling – if you’re going around hurting people and being an asshole, you SHOULD be made to see the error of your ways. You SHOULD have to make amends. You should not do jerky things, and then go off and have good times and get what you want out of life. It’s just not right.

But the weird thing is, even if some of that involves the person getting hurt, I wouldn’t want to be the one who hurts them. Maybe that makes me a bit of a hypocrite, I’m not sure. On the very few times in my life that I’ve lashed out at someone in anger, it was probably somewhat justified, though probably also a bit over the top, and in any case not the best way to handle the situation. But if I had the feeling that I’d hurt their feelings by doing this, I felt bad. On the other hand…when I heard that my ex-boyfriend and his wife were splitting up, while I didn’t go “hee hee”, and I tried to take the view that marriage breakups are always pretty much bad (what I believe), I still had a bit of a feeling that the balance had been redressed.

Forgiveness, to a point. After that, I'll be actively looking for ways to make you wish you hadn't been born. And I won't lose any sleep.

Believe it. :coffee:

It's only happened once, and I didn't have to do anything except ignore her. She had a stroke. Karma is a bitch. ;)

I actually wouldn't have thought INFPs could be so scary. I thought INFJs were scarier. ;) :shock:
I know what you mean. :hug:
I have come to see forgiveness as learning to see the offender the way you did before the offense took place. Which doesn't mean to be naïve. Jesus still asked Peter three times: "Peter, do you love me?"

That's a really good, and Christian, approach. I think it's a problem for me though where I feel like I was wrong about the person before. Like, I really saw them through rose-coloured glasses. Or they were the kind of person who hides what they are.

I am realizing that I don't really know how to forgive people who I believe are toxic for me, and who I don't really want in my life any more. Maybe it is just about letting go the resentment?
 

Biaxident

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I actually wouldn't have thought INFPs could be so scary. I thought INFJs were scarier. ;) :shock:

I'm very live, and let live. But once a certain line is crossed, all bets are off.

That's what some people don't seem to understand. They find it amusing, and look down their noses, because we don't care what you do, as long as you aren't stepping on other people, or our internal mores.

Being teased never bothered me. But when it becomes physical, or starts interfering with my life, or the life of someone I care about. Or whatever I am doing to make money to survive.

Then you crossed the line.



Even people I dislike, don't normally cross the line.
 

Charmed Justice

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I can get pretty vengeful, but my confidence in karma increases as the years go by.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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NT chiming in... I'm a little surprised there aren't more NFs dissenting in this thread. I always thought cold-hearted justice was more of a T thing, with F's having a reputation for forgiveness and mercy.

Those of you who do want people to get their comeuppance, do you think that's more about justice or revenge? I know it's a thin line sometimes, but to me justice implies a dispassionate if/then proposition (this person committed X crime, and therefore must suffer X consequence), whereas revenge is more personal (this person hurt my family/friend/self and so I want to hurt them).

One is cold-hearted and from the head, while the other is passionate and from the heart. I'm sure Fs and Ts are capable of both reactions, but I would expect more Ts than Fs to be attracted to the former, and more Fs than Ts to the latter.

Are you more interested in the global or the local? I remember asking an INFJ friend a hypothetical question: if you accidentally killed someone, ran them over with a truck or something -- someone has to die -- who would you want it to be that you had removed from this world? I chose a dictator who had committed human rights abuses and the INFJ chose an old enemy from school. Don't know whether that's illustrative or merely anecdotal, but I'd be interested in people's opinions.
I don't think of it as revenge, cold-hearted, or forgiveness. I question the existence of free will, and if it does play a role in people's decisions, then it is constrained by circumstance. Because I can't determine to what extent a person actually owns their choices and behaviors, I can't understand the role of punishment as a reaction. The destructive nature of people needs to be addressed and the problems it causes solved, but this should not involve rage or personal revenge.

I see the desire for punishment and revenge as the symptom of the disease of cruelty. The problem with every act of cruelty is that it is perceived as justice regardless of how warped that perception is. There are two poles that demonstrate how this revenge is settled. The first is direct in which the exact perpetrator of the violation is punished back to the same degree they caused harm. We often see this as justice. The second form of revenge is indirect in which a person who serves as a proxy for the violator is punished. We see this as cruelty. This is the process by which the abused become abuser of a new and innocent victim. I'm not convinced the two processes are fundamentally different. Both are trying to create an inner sense of balance. Both see their victim as guilty - in one case it is direct and arguably more rational, but in the second case, the proxy is seen as having the same potential to cause harm because of sharing similar traits. Using a proxy is sometimes preferred because they are not as threatening as the original violator.

The external act of punishment has something of a different quality between these two processes, but internally it is the same. Externally it is not opposite because in both cases it requires tunnel vision and a process of dehumanization in order to justify the act. In the end every behavior is at the end of a long cascade of dominos. Every act is merely a wave which has been acted upon and is acting upon. To stop this process of cruelty does not require blind forgiveness, but it does require an end to the chain of punishment and violation.
 

SilkRoad

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In these situations it can certainly be difficult for me to tell if I'm coming more from a perspective of wanting to see justice done and imbalances redressed, or if I really just want someone to get screwed over like I feel they screwed me over.

That does worry me. :(
 

Arclight

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No worries, I wasn't offended at all by your first post. :)

In the situation with the INFJ, do you feel like explaining a bit more? Is it the INFJ who is not willing to accept responsibility and who seems to be off having fun? I didn't quite get that from your post.

Yeah I can see how I did not articulate quite as fluently as I could have :blush:

What the situation is .. it seems the INFJ has not taken repsonisbily at all for her role in the breakdown of our friendship.
And some of her behavior after the breakdown, might be a reaction to my reaction of the breakdown.

My reaction was to take actions and make some decisions that would suggest I don't care at all what she thinks or feels, But that might be the whole point..
I don't want her to know how upset I might be or even how sorry I might be.
Instead I would rather show that I can grow without her.

Which made my whole point to your point .. that behavior can't always be taken at face value.
And that, while you are wishing someone ill will for what appears on the surface. maybe there is deeper meaning for their behavior.. maybe they are doing it for you, not against you.
It's possible that whatever happened between you and the other person was a catalytic moment in their life and their growth and any subsequent success might be result of that.
 

BRMC117

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house_burning.jpg


Yes, burn, burn, burn!!!!



O_O
 

SilkRoad

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Yeah I can see how I did not articulate quite as fluently as I could have :blush:

What the situation is .. it seems the INFJ has not taken repsonisbily at all for her role in the breakdown of our friendship.
And some of her behavior after the breakdown, might be a reaction to my reaction of the breakdown.

My reaction was to take actions and make some decisions that would suggest I don't care at all what she thinks or feels, But that might be the whole point..
I don't want her to know how upset I might be or even how sorry I might be.
Instead I would rather show that I can grow without her.

Which made my whole point to your point .. that behavior can't always be taken at face value.
And that, while you are wishing someone ill will for what appears on the surface. maybe there is deeper meaning for their behavior.. maybe they are doing it for you, not against you.
It's possible that whatever happened between you and the other person was a catalytic moment in their life and their growth and any subsequent success might be result of that.

Sorry you have been in that situation. And, I think I see what you are getting at. The last paragraph... This is where being able to read people's minds would occasionally be useful. :huh:
 

Arclight

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Sorry you have been in that situation. And, I think I see what you are getting at. The last paragraph... This is where being able to read people's minds would occasionally be useful. :huh:

Thank you for your sympathy.

Yes!! reading minds would solve many of these types of situations.. But since most of us can't .. There is always the tried and true method of "communication". But for this to work . Both people would need to be at a point of growth where true forgiveness could be rendered and received by both parties(something you and KLessard were touching on).
No blame and true objectivity .. OUCH!!.. not an easy task for the wounded F:cry:
 
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