• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INFJ] What would an angry INFJ say to you?

Tea-Snob

New member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
14
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I have 2 angry modes I feel, and it really depends who it is and how quickly I get there.

If I am expressing frustration it's a short, intense outburst.. like I accidentally on purpose tooted my car horn in traffic kind of thing. My angry outburst is stymied once I catch up with myself and I am left feeling a little embarrassed.

If I want to other person to know that I am hurt though I tend not to blow, it's more a rolling boil. Most of my communication is with body language and ... not silence but.. well.. it's like the drums in the forest have been playing their hypnotic beat all night and suddenly they stop SILENT.. you dont see much but something feels like it's about to go a bit wrong.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
Full Disclosure: I am an ENxP that’s a teeny bit more F than T. This post is based on my experience with my INFJ friends and study of the MBTI. However, I’ve never run this theory by an INFJ, so I’d appreciate input from INFJs reading this post. :)

My answer to the question at hand is “it depends.”

I've come to understand INFJ anger as a two-part process. First, the INFJ gets angry on the inside. Second, they go through a decision making process about how to best handle that anger. What an angry INFJ says to you (or does not say) is almost never done without careful consideration. Thus, the outward expression of their anger will be very deliberate and reflect the INFJ's goals.

Part One: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Inside
Like all Js, INFJs relish organization and decisiveness. More than any other type I've encountered, INFJs focus their organizational abilities in the arena of their internal constructs. Their homes may or may not be cluttered, but their conclusions (reached through their feelings about the matter at hand) are drawn quickly and are pretty darn fixed.

I've noticed that what REALLLLLY ticks off an INFJ is when they observe a violation of their intense vision of how things "should be" or "ought to be." (Voilà! Ni with Fe.) This means that anger with an INFJ is almost always tied to righting a perceived wrong. It also means that INFJs always have a motive when communicating anger. Once you know their motive, you can pretty accurately predict their response.

Step Two: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Outside
An INFJ who experiences anger on the inside next does what INFJs do: They carefully weigh the consequences of expressing their feelings BEFORE they act. (Voilà! Fe) The array of INFJ angry responses might include the following:

  1. Trying to Let It Go – INFJs value highly social norms and try to create a smooth and cooperative vibe with those whom they interact. Given this, it may seem reasonable to the INFJ, to try to let it go.
  2. Bottling Up the Anger (a.k.a. Filing It Away for Future Use) – My experience has been that #1 is a pipe dream for many INFJs. An unhealthy or young INFJ may desire to “let it go” on one level only in the sense that they can’t bear the idea of the confrontation. They have no desire to truly forgive the offender or re-examine their reasoning about whether or not there was truly an offense. This unresolved paradox leads to all sorts of INFJ passive-aggressive antics. Eventually, the unexpressed anger results in the INFJ either shutting the offender out, or resorting to responses #3 and/or #4.
  3. The Silent Treatment – Quietly nursing curmudgeonly feelings for the offender and communicating those feelings by deliberately not communicating is a really common INFJ response to anger (at least in my experience).
    <As a side note, this is one of the reasons ENTPs are so good with INFJs. My strong Ti (I’m only barely F) completely undercuts INFJ over-emotionalism. For example, one of my INFJ friends was giving me the silent treatment at a party. My response was to walk over, give him a big grin, and then say, “You completely crack me up. Are you done snubbing me? ‘Cause I was thinking you might feel better if you told me to f-off. Then we can move past it and be friends again.” He was floored, but after reflecting for 30 seconds, he returned the grin before saying, “Yeah, you’re right. I need to work on letting things go.” (Ha! That was one of the longest 30 seconds of my life, btw.)>
  4. The Sarcastic Response – Ohhh a cocky/arrogant INFJ is not a pretty sight to see. My experience has been that sometimes INFJs are overly confident as a way to compensate for feeling overly insecure. If an INFJ is coming from this place of weakness/overconfidence, then sarcasm is often employed. Sarcasm is about overt irony intentionally used by the speaker as in the form of implicit criticism. It can be a form of verbal aggression. In an unhealthy INFJ, bitingly sarcastic remarks become a mainstay of verbal communication.
  5. The “I’m going to tell you the truth because you need to hear it” Response – As an ENFP, I know this one well… and have been known to employ it myself. This is the response that can be so hurtful. And the truer it is, the more hurtful hearing it will be. The INFJ’s motive is usually to provide constructive criticism. But in less self-actualized INFJ’s it can be just plain out vindictive and petty.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
When I was younger I mostly remember that people would typically burst into uncontrollable laughter when I expressed anger.

Yes this happens to me alot. People just find it hilarious whenever I lose my temper or rant angrily about something. So naturally some people deliberately try to piss me off on purpose just to get a laugh in or two. It reminds me of the "Angry Dad" episode of the Simpsons.

[youtube="hyM3HVdH1Kw"]Angry Dad[/youtube]
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Full Disclosure: I am an ENxP that’s a teeny bit more F than T. This post is based on my experience with my INFJ friends and study of the MBTI. However, I’ve never run this theory by an INFJ, so I’d appreciate input from INFJs reading this post. :)

My answer to the question at hand is “it depends.”

I've come to understand INFJ anger as a two-part process. First, the INFJ gets angry on the inside. Second, they go through a decision making process about how to best handle that anger. What an angry INFJ says to you (or does not say) is almost never done without careful consideration. Thus, the outward expression of their anger will be very deliberate and reflect the INFJ's goals.

Part One: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Inside
Like all Js, INFJs relish organization and decisiveness. More than any other type I've encountered, INFJs focus their organizational abilities in the arena of their internal constructs. Their homes may or may not be cluttered, but their conclusions (reached through their feelings about the matter at hand) are drawn quickly and are pretty darn fixed.

I've noticed that what REALLLLLY ticks off an INFJ is when they observe a violation of their intense vision of how things "should be" or "ought to be." (Voilà! Ni with Fe.) This means that anger with an INFJ is almost always tied to righting a perceived wrong. It also means that INFJs always have a motive when communicating anger. Once you know their motive, you can pretty accurately predict their response.

Step Two: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Outside
An INFJ who experiences anger on the inside next does what INFJs do: They carefully weigh the consequences of expressing their feelings BEFORE they act. (Voilà! Fe) The array of INFJ angry responses might include the following:

  1. Trying to Let It Go – INFJs value highly social norms and try to create a smooth and cooperative vibe with those whom they interact. Given this, it may seem reasonable to the INFJ, to try to let it go.

    I tend to do this one too much, even when it would serve both parties much better for me to go ahead and say something. The problem is I don't want to be hasty, I hate being perceived as oversensitive, I try to assess what factors could be affecting my judgement (eg tiredness, less emotional string than usual, previous unresolved incident with same person)
  2. Bottling Up the Anger (a.k.a. Filing It Away for Future Use) – My experience has been that #1 is a pipe dream for many INFJs. An unhealthy or young INFJ may desire to “let it go” on one level only in the sense that they can’t bear the idea of the confrontation. They have no desire to truly forgive the offender or re-examine their reasoning about whether or not there was truly an offense. This unresolved paradox leads to all sorts of INFJ passive-aggressive antics. Eventually, the unexpressed anger results in the INFJ either shutting the offender out, or resorting to responses #3 and/or #4.
  3. The Silent Treatment – Quietly nursing curmudgeonly feelings for the offender and communicating those feelings by deliberately not communicating is a really common INFJ response to anger (at least in my experience).
    <As a side note, this is one of the reasons ENTPs are so good with INFJs. My strong Ti (I’m only barely F) completely undercuts INFJ over-emotionalism. For example, one of my INFJ friends was giving me the silent treatment at a party. My response was to walk over, give him a big grin, and then say, “You completely crack me up. Are you done snubbing me? ‘Cause I was thinking you might feel better if you told me to f-off. Then we can move past it and be friends again.” He was floored, but after reflecting for 30 seconds, he returned the grin before saying, “Yeah, you’re right. I need to work on letting things go.” (Ha! That was one of the longest 30 seconds of my life, btw.)>

  4. I do this when I would like to suck my feelings up but the dam has burst and I can't hold it back. The ENTP response you describe is effective at softening us up, but the person still has to be willing to discuss the underlying issue at hand. Whether the INFJ has it completely figured out or not yet, all their anger stints can be traced to reoccurring underlying issues in the relationship that greatly trouble them. If it doesn't get discussed at some point, that incident will get bottled up and will pop out later. (Not for revenge purposes, but because it can't be mentally put away until there's been some kind of feedback to confirm the INFJs reasoning for why this issue is coming up. They hate emotional surprises, so have a compulsive need to figure out why these ones have come up and prevent it from happening again.)

    The Sarcastic Response – Ohhh a cocky/arrogant INFJ is not a pretty sight to see. My experience has been that sometimes INFJs are overly confident as a way to compensate for feeling overly insecure. If an INFJ is coming from this place of weakness/overconfidence, then sarcasm is often employed. Sarcasm is about overt irony intentionally used by the speaker as in the form of implicit criticism. It can be a form of verbal aggression. In an unhealthy INFJ, bitingly sarcastic remarks become a mainstay of verbal communication.

    Sounds unpleasant. I'm not that familiar with doing that, though I could see how it could develop.
  5. The “I’m going to tell you the truth because you need to hear it” Response – As an ENFP, I know this one well… and have been known to employ it myself. This is the response that can be so hurtful. And the truer it is, the more hurtful hearing it will be. The INFJ’s motive is usually to provide constructive criticism. But in less self-actualized INFJ’s it can be just plain out vindictive and petty.

Yep, this would be the main other one for me. It's usually though in an effort to preserve the relationship. Very seldom will an INFJ bother to tell you something negative about yourself unless you are such a part of their inner circle and it is worth risking it for the greater good. They hold the people close to them to much higher standards than their acquaintances or casual friends, which may anger or confuse the people they love. They hate the feeling of "telling the truth because you need to hear it", but somewhat like throwing up when you have a sick stomach, it is so much better afterwards! In most cases, INFJs believe they have given a lot of more subtle clues so that you could have picked up the message in a less uncomfortable way and they were blatantly ignored. They also have likely put up with a lot, believing that it would even out eventually, except that the other person doesn't understand the sacrifices they were making or doesn't even the score to make things fair.

Nice synopsis!
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
I've come to understand INFJ anger as a two-part process. First, the INFJ gets angry on the inside. Second, they go through a decision making process about how to best handle that anger. What an angry INFJ says to you (or does not say) is almost never done without careful consideration. Thus, the outward expression of their anger will be very deliberate and reflect the INFJ's goals.

It took me a long time to figure out that INFJs so carefully weigh their options before acting. That is soooooo different from the way I think. As an ENxP, when I get angry I just start talking. In fact, I often figure out why I'm angry as I'm talking.

If everyone just thought like me, the world would be so much better. :smile:
 

ergophobe

Allergic to Mornings
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,210
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
She will say nothing to you. Absolutely nothing. For years. :(

Yep. They will disappear into the ether, never to be seen again and assume you know why.

I'd agree it mostly happens after repeated attempts to avoid having to go that far, and for me, it's kind of like Peguy -- you'll get chapter and verse and nailed to the wall. This is what you did this time, that time, the other time, the time before that; this is what I said to you those times; this is why now I've reached my dizzy limit.

This is my biggest pet peeve with the INFJs I know and love. They won't bring things up regularly, as posters mentioned before, due to strong Fe needs for harmony. Yet, they will store the information for future use. Finally, the bottling up creates enough pressure to blow up....not pretty and more importantly, not productive. Especially when incidents are brought up from months, even years ago.

As Blah...it seems dishonest from the outside, a little deceitful that the person would pretend everything was okay (when they were clearly upset on the inside) instead of just saying directly that they were upset about something... It is likely to damage the relationship permanently. Also, you don't give the person at fault, the cause of your hurt, the chance to learn from their mistakes/actions when they happen.

From my own experience and perspective , even if I'm mad in the moment of conflict, after some time to detach, I'll recognize where I was wrong and apologize and work hard to correct my actions. I'm far less likely to take heed to a list of accusations/complaints a year after the events. At that point, I'm blindsided, hurt that there was little trust put in the relationship and that seemingly a facade was used by the INFJ. I'm not saying this is what INFJs are doing - this is just how it may be perceived. When I don't know how I may be causing you hurt, I can't fix it, can't apologize and can't give you the benefit of doubt that you're cutting me slack instead of keeping score.

I understand the motivation. I guess we tend to see people as similar to ourselves. INFJs are such sensitive souls. They assume everyone is the same way, protecting them from conflict much like they protect themselves. Fe users overestimate the potential reaction of the other person when in reality, much of the time, people are quite resilient and appreciate honesty.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Yeah it took me awhile to realize that. One thing though - INFJs are very seldom sitting there brooding over things for that whole year. They make valiant attempts to dismiss what happened as their own problem, not the other person's. They really think they have dealt with it. And then suddenly when they are least expecting it, something else happens and everything comes out all at once. It's quite embarrassing and unpleasant to them and they feel awful afterwards, but I can see how it's difficult to deal with. Even at the best of times, you'll rarely get an INFJ telling you they are mad until they've had time to analyze why on their own. By then, it seems like nitpicking to bring it up unless its really big. And then if it is really big it's awhile more before they've figured out how to because as you say, they assume it will make everyone feel as rotten as they would feel if told the same thing.
 

ergophobe

Allergic to Mornings
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,210
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Yeah it took me awhile to realize that. One thing though - INFJs are very seldom sitting there brooding over things for that whole year. They make valiant attempts to dismiss what happened as their own problem, not the other person's.

Like potential weak areas for any types, I think this would depend on the health of the INFJ. When healthy, it could be more like water off a duck's back on the outside and inside. When not, it's only the case outside. That's difficult for both parties. I :heart: the INFJs and hate to see them hold these internal battles constantly.

I have an INFJ brother. We've followed each other all over the world and usually live within a few minutes of the other. As siblings who are this close, I would expect regular processing. It's natural we would annoy each other regularly (that's what siblings do :smile:) but I would hope that we would talk about it. The occasional outburst is difficult at both ends and so unnecessary. At my end, I believe people want to do right by people they love. I want to do right by correcting myself when I have been hurtful unintentionally. If I don't know that something I said/did/didn't say/didn't do was hurtful, I can't work on it. So much of the being blindsided by the outburst is rooted in embarrassment and shame at the thought of having hurt someone I really care for, for so long, without being aware of it or doing something about it. Like Esoteric Wench, I have to call him on it (not an ENTP specific reaction, likely more an extroverted one) to allow us to talk through whatever it is. It's difficult but we do both feel better afterward without the long term damage bottling up can do.

The majority of my close friends are INFJs and ENFJs with a smattering of XNTJs, ENTPs and XSFPs mixed in. I've seen my INFJ friends (two in particular because we share our lives openly with each other) process the hurt regularly, really struggle with it whenever the person at fault is mentioned and not tell the said person. It's helped me understand the INFJs better but I often wish they wouldn't do this to or by themselves and also wish they would give the said person a chance to right some wrongs.

I don't think this applies to all INFJs, like anything else said here about a type. We can only base what we say on the people we know who are influenced by so many variables. I'll add that I don't know anyone more loyal, squishy on the inside or giving than the INFJs I know in real life - that's why I horde them :cheese:.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I think the problem comes in thta they really believe they've dealt with it and that things are okay. Until something else happens. I agree that's not fair, but I believe they don't want to bring it up when they think it's just a little minor one time thing.

For example, my ESTJ boyfriend decided when we were up north that he was only going to go to the grocery store once a week so that he wasn't spending so much money all the time (produce there only lasts a couple of days). We always made pizza together on Thursdays. A lot of the time, it turned out that I was the only one who had gotten around to getting mushrooms, onions, peppers etc. I was okay with that though. It's not like it's a huge expense and I figured since he acknowledged that he had noticed this was the case that he would either even things up at some point or I was fine with things how they were.

However, we also bought water together at the store. Usually we went together every three weeks or so and loaded up a whole bunch of jugs and he would help me carry them. We took turns buying the water, rather than mucking around with change. At one point, when it was my turn to pay, he mentioned this fact gleefully more than once. I was annoyed (because it felt like he was implying that I was trying to get out of something) and was a little quieter, then said enough for him to catch on that he shouldn't continue saying that. However, the next time it was my turn to pay, he did it again. By then, I felt like, "Look buster, you're skating on thin ice anyway. Some would say that you're cheap, particularly when you are not trying to publicly impress someone anyway. I have always more than paid my own way, even when I didn't need to, because it matters to me that you don't feel like I am taking advantage. On a weekly basis I end up buying the stuff for pizza and pretty often I happen to have the ingredients around when we cook supper together too. And now you act like I am trying to cheap out on...water????"

Of course by then, all of the other things going wrong at that time get put into the mix. Frustrated not just about this one incident, but many, I know that if I bring it up then, I am likely to either be unnecessarily harsh and bring up unrelated other issues, or I am going to cry, which results in him acting like a donkey and me apologizing and the issue still not being resolved. So it is a quiet (though not stonily silent) trip home, while I weigh all of those things.

Of course, the real problem is not water. The real problem is that I feel taken advantage of by him in some regards, he knows what he is doing, and yet because we are so professionally and personally entangled, I can't just take a few steps back so that I can change the balance of power in the relationship. I've seen him use other people to social/professional or personal advantage and then talk badly about them when they are not present. I don't want to be the sucker that is taken for granted or used to benefit him as long as it's useful to him. Yet, those are fairly weighty accusations to bring up.

So I end up thinking on it for awhile longer, because maybe it's just that I haven't gotten much sleep lately, or that I'm sick, or that there's lots of other frustrations at school that are tainting my perceptions.

Besides that, every time I have brought up something that bothers me, he reacts by bringing up extraneous things that don't bother him but that do hurt me and he knows that, thereby silencing me. I react with emotion, he's either patronizing or just walks away, and end up either apologizing or having so much other new emotional stuff to process that I give up saying anything and just have a more and more separate life.

I realize that's an example of when the relationship is on shakey ground anyway, but I guess that's some of the reasoning that's there. It's not a matter of saving up stuff to bombard a person with, but rather not knowing at what point it warrants mentioning. Since then, I've realized that I should probably err on the side of mentioning little things as soon as they become an annoyance and before they become a real problem.
 

alexx

New member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
503
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
2w1
It took me a long time to figure out that INFJs so carefully weigh their options before acting.

Not really.


If it is what shoes to wear it could take hours.

If it is what state to move to it's almost instantaneous (and no amount of reasoning will ever work to make them slow down or wait.)
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
3,932
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
If it is what state to move to it's almost instantaneous (and no amount of reasoning will ever work to make them slow down or wait.)

Oh, I'm not like that at all. I'm not too spontaneous about most things, but with things like where to move, it takes me months (if not years) of deliberation.

This thread has been fascinating - I want to weigh in with my own response when I have a bit more time :)
 

alexx

New member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
503
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
2w1
I guess it is just some INFJ's then. It still blows me away when it happens.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Here's me telling Victor off, which should give you an idea. And just for kicks, here's part 2.

Yep, this would be the main other one for me. It's usually though in an effort to preserve the relationship. Very seldom will an INFJ bother to tell you something negative about yourself unless you are such a part of their inner circle and it is worth risking it for the greater good. They hold the people close to them to much higher standards than their acquaintances or casual friends, which may anger or confuse the people they love. They hate the feeling of "telling the truth because you need to hear it", but somewhat like throwing up when you have a sick stomach, it is so much better afterwards! In most cases, INFJs believe they have given a lot of more subtle clues so that you could have picked up the message in a less uncomfortable way and they were blatantly ignored. They also have likely put up with a lot, believing that it would even out eventually, except that the other person doesn't understand the sacrifices they were making or doesn't even the score to make things fair.

Nice synopsis!

Yeah it took me awhile to realize that. One thing though - INFJs are very seldom sitting there brooding over things for that whole year. They make valiant attempts to dismiss what happened as their own problem, not the other person's. They really think they have dealt with it. And then suddenly when they are least expecting it, something else happens and everything comes out all at once. It's quite embarrassing and unpleasant to them and they feel awful afterwards, but I can see how it's difficult to deal with. Even at the best of times, you'll rarely get an INFJ telling you they are mad until they've had time to analyze why on their own. By then, it seems like nitpicking to bring it up unless its really big. And then if it is really big it's awhile more before they've figured out how to because as you say, they assume it will make everyone feel as rotten as they would feel if told the same thing.

Full Disclosure: I am an ENxP that’s a teeny bit more F than T. This post is based on my experience with my INFJ friends and study of the MBTI. However, I’ve never run this theory by an INFJ, so I’d appreciate input from INFJs reading this post. :)

My answer to the question at hand is “it depends.”

I've come to understand INFJ anger as a two-part process. First, the INFJ gets angry on the inside. Second, they go through a decision making process about how to best handle that anger. What an angry INFJ says to you (or does not say) is almost never done without careful consideration. Thus, the outward expression of their anger will be very deliberate and reflect the INFJ's goals.

Part One: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Inside
Like all Js, INFJs relish organization and decisiveness. More than any other type I've encountered, INFJs focus their organizational abilities in the arena of their internal constructs. Their homes may or may not be cluttered, but their conclusions (reached through their feelings about the matter at hand) are drawn quickly and are pretty darn fixed.

I've noticed that what REALLLLLY ticks off an INFJ is when they observe a violation of their intense vision of how things "should be" or "ought to be." (Voilà! Ni with Fe.) This means that anger with an INFJ is almost always tied to righting a perceived wrong. It also means that INFJs always have a motive when communicating anger. Once you know their motive, you can pretty accurately predict their response.

Step Two: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Outside
An INFJ who experiences anger on the inside next does what INFJs do: They carefully weigh the consequences of expressing their feelings BEFORE they act. (Voilà! Fe) The array of INFJ angry responses might include the following:

  1. Trying to Let It Go – INFJs value highly social norms and try to create a smooth and cooperative vibe with those whom they interact. Given this, it may seem reasonable to the INFJ, to try to let it go.
  2. Bottling Up the Anger (a.k.a. Filing It Away for Future Use) – My experience has been that #1 is a pipe dream for many INFJs. An unhealthy or young INFJ may desire to “let it go” on one level only in the sense that they can’t bear the idea of the confrontation. They have no desire to truly forgive the offender or re-examine their reasoning about whether or not there was truly an offense. This unresolved paradox leads to all sorts of INFJ passive-aggressive antics. Eventually, the unexpressed anger results in the INFJ either shutting the offender out, or resorting to responses #3 and/or #4.
  3. The Silent Treatment – Quietly nursing curmudgeonly feelings for the offender and communicating those feelings by deliberately not communicating is a really common INFJ response to anger (at least in my experience).
    <As a side note, this is one of the reasons ENTPs are so good with INFJs. My strong Ti (I’m only barely F) completely undercuts INFJ over-emotionalism. For example, one of my INFJ friends was giving me the silent treatment at a party. My response was to walk over, give him a big grin, and then say, “You completely crack me up. Are you done snubbing me? ‘Cause I was thinking you might feel better if you told me to f-off. Then we can move past it and be friends again.” He was floored, but after reflecting for 30 seconds, he returned the grin before saying, “Yeah, you’re right. I need to work on letting things go.” (Ha! That was one of the longest 30 seconds of my life, btw.)>
  4. The Sarcastic Response – Ohhh a cocky/arrogant INFJ is not a pretty sight to see. My experience has been that sometimes INFJs are overly confident as a way to compensate for feeling overly insecure. If an INFJ is coming from this place of weakness/overconfidence, then sarcasm is often employed. Sarcasm is about overt irony intentionally used by the speaker as in the form of implicit criticism. It can be a form of verbal aggression. In an unhealthy INFJ, bitingly sarcastic remarks become a mainstay of verbal communication.
  5. The “I’m going to tell you the truth because you need to hear it” Response – As an ENFP, I know this one well… and have been known to employ it myself. This is the response that can be so hurtful. And the truer it is, the more hurtful hearing it will be. The INFJ’s motive is usually to provide constructive criticism. But in less self-actualized INFJ’s it can be just plain out vindictive and petty.

I've been wondering about this whole INFJ anger/door slam thing.

I can see why Victor would set Peguy off like that, and wonder what the limit is on annoyance that would trigger this.

I've dealt with a supposed INFJ, and the behavior seemed to fit these descriptions, but then there were a lot of things that just weren't right.


•Start off offering just criticisms of posts; constructive ones, granted, but nevertheless, that's all they ever say to you (establish no sort of relationship, so it's like this person is popping out of nowhere in an unfriendly manner), and you even try to heed their advice, but the real issue is they don't like your ideas. They make some remark about "ignoring" you, but continue commenting.

•Eventually, they begin getting nasty, using credentials and status (theirs and your lack thereof). The biggest complaint being you are not "serious" about the subject like they are. Mind you; it's an informal discussion group.

•Then then at one point initiate what seems like a friendly discussion, and when you take them up on it, but unwittingly say something they for some reason don't like, then they suddenly lash out with #5. Their reasoning is the "repeated offenses" from before, and "missed cues", and they acknowledge "stepping back and examining their own stuff", but there is never any sign of remorse, or that they might be wrong. It's all YOU, YOU, YOU, boldly and unequivocally!
They also claim to be "feeling for the group", and appeal to others and DARE you to find anyone in your support, though the others do not say much.

•They see they've upset you, and now start trying to "help" (FIX) you, and you try to move forward. But then after some time has passed, they recount to someone else about the affair, (as an "example" of the INFJ's anger, yet!), in a manner that sounds like bragging about beating you.

•When they did #5 on you, they harshly criticized your social skills (which is what supposedly set them off in the first place), but then you see them (present and past) having the same and even worse social skills. They neglect the definitive Fe niceties such as saying "hi" to people, even on their very first post, and intimidate them, with not only with the way they treated you, but also pouncing on others even from a more "helpful" premise. Others take serious offense to their apparently hawking their business, or trying to come off as an expert. —(which is exactly what the person accused you of!)
So in other words, they're telling you "the truth" about yourself, but then it was even more true for them. So why should you be humiliated like that by someone who's even more guilty of the supposed "offenses"?

•Time passes, and they suddenly take offense again to something you say, and now begin with the #4 treatment, and it escalates again, but this time you react more strongly.
They now go into defensive mode and claim to be "attacked", "bullied" and "intimidated", and that you broke a "truce" (the earlier claim to want to move on), which now becomes their excuse to do the "door slam".
So now, they give you #3, but continue to do #4--but to others —they take shots at you when talking with others, while ignoring you. Even long after the discussions have moved on, they continue this.

Now note; it's the reverse of above: #5 comes first, then 4, then 3!

•You react, and they continue to complain of being attacked, and then storm off for good, "apologizing" to everyone only for your behavior; not theirs, directly, and then writing a nasty long e-mail calling you names, accusing you of destroying their "recreation" (what a reversal from not being "serious" enough!), saying they'll delete any responses unread and even threatening "legal action" when you try to resolve the thing after a long cooling off period.


Is this within the range of INFJ behavior? I have seen where INFJ's with Ni as overdominating are described as basically overriding their Fe and "steamrolling" others with their "visions", but I'm thinking this person is ENTJ, now, especially because of the whole status/business mindset, the use of Fe only to castigate the other person, while not manifesting its good aspects, and the drive to WIN and get the last word by any means (angry NT behavior; esp. ENT). Even if an "unhealthy INFJ", I would think the Fe in non-stressed mode would have been more typical.
Also, it became clear that it was a whole turf war. They felt their turf was being invaded and someone was trying to upseat their [unofficial] position (when that was not the case at all), and again, it was all about business.

From what I have seen in discussions like this, I imagine you would really have to be the one approaching the INFJ and annoying them for them to react like that; especially being both "introverted" and "cooperative". They don't go after people, and make a group [that they're only marginally involved in, yet] their "turf" do they? And would the kind of "offenses" that set them off be issues of "seriousness"; and have an otherwise "business" orientation?
And the "door slam" wouldn't involve them poking at the "offender" (using others), right?

I ask, because for one thing, it ties into discussions like the whole Hitler analysis, where most think he's NFJ, but to me, it seems like very shadowy Fe, and thus TJ. Of course, some could argue the Te/Fi were what were shadowy (Fi is described as the one to "cut off" relationships for good when values are violated too much, and in the "witch" position, it would figure), but those did not look nearly as destructive as the Fe.

So is the "door slam" specifically INFJ, or NFJ in general? Or could it be more of just an NJ thing? I imagine the F is what leads to a tendency to "retreat", while T might be more likely to stick around and fight. But then, if they feel it's "a waste of their time", then they would try to throw the last punch and get away. Still, I would imagine the common tendency is to be through with you.

My wife is SFJ, and they don't do the door slam. You'd have to do something REALLY horrible to push them that far, from what I see. Because they're informing rather than directive, they seem to be more willing to forgive and try to work it out, civilly. (And it's ironic that many INTP's complain about SFJ's, but tend to like NFJ's. I guess they need a fellow N more than they need someone more accepting and forgiving).
I am all too familiar with ISTJ's, and they have tertiary Fi, and will cut off relationships that have been violated too much as well.
 

ergophobe

Allergic to Mornings
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,210
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
I'm so sorry Fid. :hug: The scenario sounds vary painful :cry:

Is this the SO that you've mentioned before or someone new? We really need to catch up properly. I've missed keeping up with goings on in your life.

I think the problem comes in that they really believe they've dealt with it and that things are okay. Until something else happens. I agree that's not fair, but I believe they don't want to bring it up when they think it's just a little minor one time thing.

I don't think I clarified this above and really meant to - It's not just about fairness for the other person - it's about protecting you guys too, often from ourselves :doh:. I know you don't need or desire it and are pretty kick ass when you want to be (ahem, I know from experience :cheese:) but the ENFP in me who desires fairness for ALL thinks it's unfair to YOU. It is painful to see that you would and other INFJs would continuously let things that are SO unfair to you slide and the cause of the hurt knows nothing about it or how hard you're working to keep things calm on the surface. Not fair. Both sides should work on the relationship, whatever it may be - sibling, romance to keep it all rainbows and unicorns.

For example, my ESTJ boyfriend...

Sorry. It sounds like you are not and don't feel appreciated for everything you do.

Besides that, every time I have brought up something that bothers me, he reacts by bringing up extraneous things that don't bother him but that do hurt me and he knows that, thereby silencing me. I react with emotion, he's either patronizing or just walks away, and end up either apologizing or having so much other new emotional stuff to process that I give up saying anything and just have a more and more separate life.

Long back you had mentioned in a conversation that INFJs may not react well in the immediate moment of conflict but they always reflect and change their behavior to honor what they feel was their part. I found this very insightful and it does apply to the people I know. Does he do this too, altering his behavior eventually? If not, why do you feel like you have to apologize for a situation where you felt so strongly that you were being treated unfairly?

I realize that's an example of when the relationship is on shakey ground anyway, but I guess that's some of the reasoning that's there. It's not a matter of saving up stuff to bombard a person with, but rather not knowing at what point it warrants mentioning. Since then, I've realized that I should probably err on the side of mentioning little things as soon as they become an annoyance and before they become a real problem.

Some potential scenarios of bringing things up earlier:
1. Temporary conflict and disharmony but the person reflects and alters behavior.
2. Temporary conflict and disharmony but the person does not reflect and alter behavior, getting defensive and hurting more in retaliation.
3. If both are in a good place, a conversation about both sides of the picture and coming up with solutions together.

At my end, I think, at least you'll know what would happen if you were to share and know you gave the person a chance to reflect and that they did or did not take that chance. It's not easy though, I can relate. I'm currently struggling with how to talk to an INFJ I've known for almost 18 years - one of my best friends in the whole world. I'm taking some time out to reflect and detach so I can have the conversation in a way that our friendship and this wonderful, caring person deserves. I won't have it until I feel I can have the conversation maturely but I also won't engage until I do. I can see how Fi can be scary in this way to some because it's not always concerned with external harmony but the inside and outside are always well matched.

I really hope you are matched with someone who appreciates all that you bring to the relationship. :hug:
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Eric B, that was a really intense read. I don't know that I have constructive input because I don't know what type that represents. I'm not even sure how much type really describes a person since there are many other factors influencing them. All I can say is that what you describe would be exhausting to experience whether giving or receiving.

I think some INFJs doorslam, but not all. When I leave a situation it isn't a doorslam, but complete exhaustion from the situation, or an inability to know how to resolve the conflict, or not knowing how to protect myself (if it is serious situation), or just generalized confusion at all the behaviors and ideas especially if the person is inconsistent. My personal reaction doesn't mean much here, but my point is that all exits/doorslams are not created equal. There can be as many motivations as there are people.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Yeah, that behaviour doesn't sound very typically INFJ but probably a non-INFJ type could even better say.

I will say that most INFJs have to be really, really, really at the end of their string to doorslam anyone. They usually will have made repeated attempts to amend the problem (or else what the person did was just so despicable that they can't fathom the possibility of ever trusting them again in any manner). I have in my life only doorslammed two people. In one case, the person had been a good friend and had lied for two years about whether they had a girlfriend while still being inappropriately friendly/romantic with me via email. I just figured if his character was like that, I didn't want to be friends with him any longer. In the other case, it was a man 25 years older than me who convinced me to fly across the country with my mother because he had excellent research materials and subjects for a project I was doing that he had very specific and needed knowledge on. It turned out that he just liked me and was hoping to spend more time with me and had greatly exaggerated and lied about what was available there. I didn't speak to him after I left early. Toonia's description of the doorslam seems pretty accurate to me.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
It's hard for anyone of any type to rise above the fray during moments of anger. However, I think INFJs have a harder time than most. Such is the burden of being able to see all the permutations of any given situation while at the same time feeling compelled to have their psyche (Ni) neatly organized. One INFJ friend of mine calls this the shuttlecock experience. She always feels like she's shuttling between two irreconcilable positions.

So I think that INFJs have a host of healthy and unhealthy tactics for dealing with this paradox. Angry, un-self-actualized INFJs tend to cut off information they should consider. I think the INFJ Personal Growth page on personalitypage.com says it so well:

"If the psyche is presented with information that looks anything like something that Introverted iNtuition has processed in the past, it uses Extraverted Feeling to quickly reject that information. The psyche uses Extraverted Feeling to reject the ideas, rather than taking the information into its intuitive framework, and therefore potentially causing that framework to be reshaped and redefined.

'Using Extraverted Feeling in this manner may effectively serve the immediate needs of Introverted iNtuition, but it is not ideal. It causes the INFJ to not consider information that may be useful or criticial in developing a real understanding of an issue. It may cause the INFJ to come off as too strongly opinionated or snobbish to others." (from INFJ Personal Growth)

In other words, INFJs (healthy or not) can get very black and white in their thinking if they are angry. I suppose we all do this, but there is a particularly visceral and obstinate quality to the angry INFJ's thinking. I find that I have to give my INFJ friends LOTS of space to let them process the situation. ( e.g., One INFJ friend who cares about me very much took eight months before she re-contacted me to apologize for getting upset with me for no fault of my own.)

This is very, very hard for me to take. Maybe it's my ENFP personality. Maybe it's my robust personal luggage collection. But it seems to me that I shouldn't have to give my INFJ friends four weeks of space every time they get upset. Not all INFJs do this, but a significant portion of them do... at least that has been my experience. <Sigh.>
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Eric B, that was a really intense read. I don't know that I have constructive input because I don't know what type that represents. I'm not even sure how much type really describes a person since there are many other factors influencing them. All I can say is that what you describe would be exhausting to experience whether giving or receiving.

I think some INFJs doorslam, but not all. When I leave a situation it isn't a doorslam, but complete exhaustion from the situation, or an inability to know how to resolve the conflict, or not knowing how to protect myself (if it is serious situation), or just generalized confusion at all the behaviors and ideas especially if the person is inconsistent. My personal reaction doesn't mean much here, but my point is that all exits/doorslams are not created equal. There can be as many motivations as there are people.
Well, was "The door slam" coined by INFJ's themselves, or was it others observing them?
It sounds to me like an external perspective. Hence, they shut you out, but inside, they are hurt about it. But on the outside, it looks like they slammed a door on you.

(Also, are you settled on j/p now? If you're really ISFP, then you would have the Fi, which would cut people off in a less huffy manner).
Yeah, that behaviour doesn't sound very typically INFJ but probably a non-INFJ type could even better say.

I will say that most INFJs have to be really, really, really at the end of their string to doorslam anyone. They usually will have made repeated attempts to amend the problem (or else what the person did was just so despicable that they can't fathom the possibility of ever trusting them again in any manner). I have in my life only doorslammed two people. In one case, the person had been a good friend and had lied for two years about whether they had a girlfriend while still being inappropriately friendly/romantic with me via email. I just figured if his character was like that, I didn't want to be friends with him any longer. In the other case, it was a man 25 years older than me who convinced me to fly across the country with my mother because he had excellent research materials and subjects for a project I was doing that he had very specific and needed knowledge on. It turned out that he just liked me and was hoping to spend more time with me and had greatly exaggerated and lied about what was available there. I didn't speak to him after I left early.

All of this sounds pretty comparable to the STJ/FP Fi "cut off" I mentioned.
I wondered about the statement "their intense vision of how things 'should be' or 'ought to be'." I guess in this latter case, it would be about the honesty of these guys' romantic desires, right? And it basically was them "approaching" you with the offense.
 
Top