[NF] NF General Discussion Thread

[Anja]

None of the above for me. Deeply spiritual - uh - whatchamacallit.

 

[wedekit]

So, how many of you NFs are atheists or agnostics?

I get this strong feeling that I may be one of the select few.

You might be able to round up some NFs that are "spiritual" but not "religious," if that will suffice.

 

[Kyrielle]

So, how many of you NFs are atheists or agnostics?

I get this strong feeling that I may be one of the select few.

A few here define themselves by those terms. A wedekit said, there are many who are spiritual, but do not count themselves as atheist or agnostic or religious. I dunno, one thing I like about people here, is if they are religious, they don't shove it in other's faces like some people in real life do.

 

[Anja]

I wouldn't feel comfortable putting someone else's idea of spirituality or non-spirituality down. It's such a private matter and no matter where a person is on the path/nonpath we are always in the state of change, either deteriorating or growing.

But I do feel like an advocate of spiritual growth.

wedekit, did I see that you had started a forum about slender men? Thought I did, but when I went back to post there yesterday I couldn't find it.

 

[wedekit]

A few here define themselves by those terms. A wedekit said, there are many who are spiritual, but do not count themselves as atheist or agnostic or religious. I dunno, one thing I like about people here, is if they are religious, they don't shove it in other's faces like some people in real life do.

I would never shove my religion in someone's face, and I don't mind respecting their religious/spiritual beliefs as long as mine are respected. However, it seems that tolerance for the religious is low on this forum, so I choose to keep it to myself in most cases. Skimming through the Spirituality section should provide plenty of examples of why I do.

wedekit, did I see that you had started a forum about slender men? Thought I did, but when I went back to post there yesterday I couldn't find it.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/8583-skinny-guys-30.html#post412841

 

[Anja]

Sending this to all my NF friends today. Just heard it on the radio and it pulled me right out of my chair.

Talk about an NF gettin' it right and havin' a good day! :hi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM89EZ_d_rw

Enjoy!

And thanks for the link, w.

 

[Anja]

It's not coming up. Try

http://www.youtube.comwatch?v=BHOZgXzlkk

Edit:

Oh hell. Why do I have so much trouble on this forum with this kinda stuff?

It's Natasha Bedingfield singing "Unwritten." Awesome INFP song. Shows the kind of joy and sense of connection that we feel when we've got our heads on straight. Kewl song.

 

[Anja]

Deleted post.

 

[SillySapienne]

Hmm, of all religions and philosophies I've encountered, I do identify the most with Taoism and I am definitely a naturalist and strongly believe that *everything* is cyclical and connected, but would/does that make me spiritual?

Usually, when I hear people describe themselves as being "spiritual", truth be told, I cringe.

I have definitely had a few experiences that have left me feeling a bit bewildered, but other than that, having also witnessed/observed/studied all the needless suffering, torture, pain, and tragedy inherent to life, from a moral standpoint, I cannot and refuse to believe there is a benevolent force behind, responsible for and or coursing through life.

How do you NFs morally justify the existence of a benevolent force, or god?

 

[Kyrielle]

Hmm, of all religions and philosophies I've encountered, I do identify the most with Taoism and I am definitely a naturalist and strongly believe that *everything* is cyclical and connected, but would/does that make me spiritual?

I think so, yes. I believe similar things. I think the trouble is the word spiritual is not always defined clearly.

Hmm. To begin, since the dictionary is a good place to begin defining things:

Spiritual

1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.

I think on the whole we could agree that the term "spiritual" describes "that which is intangible". Since "spirit" primarily concerns the immaterial, be it mythological, religious, or what-have-you. The immaterial in this case can indeed be dieties, ghosts, the soul, consciousness, thought, etc. We could even consider emotions to fall under that category.

I think you might be associating the term with a lot of New Age beliefs or slightly over-the-top believers of things, and I can understand that. But, I do think Taoists and Buddhists are intensely spiritual people in that they are constantly attempting to understand, and accept the intangible--which is to say their minds, their desires, and all that exists around them.

As for your question:

I do not think whatever runs the universe is benevolent or malevolent. It just is. It acts of its own accord, but is impartial and impersonal. That is what I believe, but I don't even believe that strongly. I don't think I could ever comprehend such a force if it were to present itself to me in a tangible way.

I'm particularly fond of Epicurus' thoughts, which is why I have a famous quote of his in my sig. Epicurus - brought to you by Wiki.

For the lazy, this about sums up what I was trying to say, "The gods do not punish the bad and reward the good as the common man believes. The opinion of the crowd is, Epicurus claims, that the gods "send great evils to the wicked and great blessings to the righteous who model themselves after the gods," when in reality Epicurus believes the gods do not concern themselves at all with human beings."


Keep in mind, though, these are just my thoughts on the issue. Others will, undoubtedly, surprise me with their completely different answers.

 

[wedekit]

I have definitely had a few experiences that have left me feeling a bit bewildered, but other than that, having also witnessed/observed/studied all the needless suffering, torture, pain, and tragedy inherent to life, from a moral standpoint, I cannot and refuse to believe there is a benevolent force behind, responsible for and or coursing through life.

How do you NFs morally justify the existence of a benevolent force, or god?

Yes, the presence of evil in the world is one big obstacle that stood between me and religious belief, and it is something that is a problem for a lot of people. It's a justified objection. Six million Jews dead because of the leadership of one German man? How could God allow a man such as Hitler to exist? However, if Hitler was prevented from doing the things he did by God, what could we say about our existence? Would you say that Hitler had free will? In my opinion, he wouldn't, and chances our none of us would. A higher being that did not allow us to be capable of evil would negate the possibility of free will.

I'm not sure what you mean by "morally justify," or I would attempt to answer it. I'm not even sure how true morals could exist without the existence of a higher being.

Theology isn't as underdeveloped as some seem to believe. There is a wealth of knowledge to be found in it. Catholic Theology isn't all "lovey dovey" and warm feelings, to be honest. That kind of stuff is something you do on your own time, or in some other denomination. I don't think I have met an educated Catholic that actually thinks Hell is a place with fire and little demons running around, or that the Book of Revelations actually predicts the end of the world. I actually couldn't bring myself to believe in God until I had gone through a lot of Theology and Philosophy classes. In these classes I found logic in believing in God, and the answers to some of the questions that prevented me from believing.

The final thing I want to add is that anyone who says that they have never doubted the existence of God is a liar. A priest told me that once.

I'm sure Peguy can put together a much better post than I have in regards to why it isn't unreasonable to have belief.

I feel much more comfortable posting about such personal matters on an NF-only area. I'm sure most of you understand how hurtful it can be to have someone take one of your personal values and say "that's retarded," and then walk away. That's why I normally keep this kind of stuff to myself.

I'll post again if I can think of any other reasons that allow me to believe.

 

[kyuuei]

To try and continue a bit. I've had bad things happen.. Seen a lot for someone my age. I'm not going as far to say I've lived in the projects, or even a terrible neighborhood, I had a good upbringing.. but I've had my fair share of stumbles.

My beliefs are that all things require balance.. Just as beautiful, good moral people need to exist, so too do the demonic-minded, selfish assholes that roam this earth. Balance is the biggest, crucial issue centered for me, from everything to why people believe in different gods/beliefs/the lack thereof, to why some people never prosper and people get sick.

You can't breed all good. Nothing comes without a price, in order to maintain balance, which is the security of life as far as I believe. When a good little girl is born that will grow up to do well and live morally, so too will a girl thats destructive to herself and society. No one ever wins, it's just a constant struggle between those trying to survive in their worlds and truths, and that constant struggle creates the value of life we seek and gives us enough that we need to live and survive. It is up to us to create our lives how we see fit, and anything we need and want we are given the power to do so. If we were meant to be rich, we have the power to create that.. just as we have the ability to deprive society of our capabilities.

... Though, I'm not exactly Christian.. so I can't speak for everyone. Those are my personal views.

 

[Sniffles]

I'm sure Peguy can put together a much better post than I have in regards to why it isn't unreasonable to have belief.

Sorry, I'm not repeating myself for the Xth time and certainly not for this one.

You're better off going about this alone.

 

[Anja]

I don't know what you mean by "morally," either, CC. That idea of morality is what caused me to leave organized religion.

Your first paragraph explaines it for me. There is no "morality" in the natural world. It just is. In a circle. Birth, growth, decay, death, rebirth. Just like the Bible teaches. Primitive man figured that out just by taking a look around. That's why I think of the Universe as my bible.

I have total faith that there is a Power which watches over the cycles.

Our job is to be here now and I think, for me, to operate and focus on the growth and life part. And, miracle of miracles, when I do that my life is improved!

Ah, dang, Peguy. You're laffin' at my simplicity. 'fess up. I know you are!

And when I finally found that simplicity in the mystery, I found my faith.

It is what it is. Sounds a lot like "I am that I am" doesn't it?

 

[Sniffles]

Ah, dang, Peguy. You're laffin' at my simplicity. 'fess up. I know you are!

Yes I must admit I am laughing, but not out of malice. I laugh because your simplicity is so beautiful, I can't help but smile at its insights.

Your simplicity reminds me of that of St Thérèse of Lisieux "the Little Flower" - a woman of simple but profound faith.

 

[Anja]

Thank you! I am aware of St Therese. By the way, knockout keyboard you've got there.

It's delightful irony that all that organized religion got me to where I am now. I doubt that without it I could have found peace. Or perhaps my curiousity would have driven me down another path.

I once talked to a Lutheran minister at the college and told him I felt awful about my nagging doubts and he responded that "A questioning faith is a living faith." That was the first time I had heard of that concept.

It was such a relief, though didn't soothe me much. Growing up I had been taught to never question; never doubt.

CS Lewis figures in all this somewhere. . . Think it was The Screwtape Lettersthat kickstarted my long journey.

_____________________________________________

wedekit, I went to the thread and realized that it wasn't yours so decided not to post since it wasn't particularly necessary. Just wanted to support a fellow INFP!

 

[Sniffles]

Well yes questions actually can be a clear sign of a living faith. If anything it shows that one has the need to know and understand God better, which is what God wants from us all. Nothing is more pathetic than a complacent sense of faith. As Charles Peguy once stated, tragic is the man who never questions his beliefs.

And I can relate very much to your statement about how much organized religion has helped you, since it has helped me as well. During my last years as an atheist, I came to admire and respect many aspects of religion and looked to its teachers for guidance on many of the profound issues in life and the world.

But my embrace of faith does not mean I embrace the stale lifeless form of religion that we see too often in churches. Rather my sense of faith is more vigourous, active, and heroic.

Anyways....I'll stop my incoherent rant here. :redface:

 

[runvardh]

I find it entertaining that stewardship is not taught as much in it's complete sense as it should be in church. God puts us in charge here and we mock him by wasting it. Actually, what really bothered me during one preaching was the concept that we should not worry about what we've done to the world because God will take care of it. It says in the Bible that he told us to. Anyway, kitty backing off for now.

 

[Sniffles]

I find it entertaining that stewardship is not taught as much in it's complete sense as it should be in church. God puts us in charge here and we mock him by wasting it. Actually, what really bothered me during one preaching was the concept that we should not worry about what we've done to the world because God will take care of it. It says in the Bible that he told us to. Anyway, kitty backing off for now.

LOL....oh don't worry, you made an interesting point here.

Yes I agree that the proper Christian attitude towards nature is not emphasized enough these days. Too many Christians actually agree with Ann Coulter's interpretation of: "God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"

This is often taken by others as meaning that Christians are against nature. nothing could be further from the truth. Just look at the story of Noah, where God gave him the responsibility of gathering up all the animals so they're not killed in the flood.

Jesus makes positive references to nature in the Sermon on the Mount: "Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?" (Matthew 6:26)

Even the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber noted that the I-Thou relationship exists on three levels: Man-nature, Man-Man, Man-God. So while Man technically is superior to nature, that doesn't mean Man is without geniune kinship with nature.

And from a more specifically Catholic position I can offer the example of St. Francis of Assisi, who's renowned for his deep love for nature.

And on that note, GK Chesterton made this wonderful point:

"The main point of Christianity was this: that Nature is not our mother: Nature is our sister. We can be proud of her beauty, since we have the same father, but she has no authority over us; we have to admire, but not to imitate. This gives to the typically Christian pleasure in this earth a strange touch that is almost frivolity... Nature is not solemn to Francis of Assisi or George Herbert. To St. Francis, Nature is a sister and even a younger sister: a little, dancing sister, to be laughed at as well as loved."
-Orthodoxy, pg. 120

So yes, as Christians let's love our beloved younger sister.

 

[runvardh]

Eh, older actually, by a few days.

I just think if it along the lines of when one is given charge of something they also must be responsable for it.