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  1. #161
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    I also think that the American idea of freedom has transformed from its original meaning. I see the American revolution being based on a "freedom from..." Now people use it as a "freedom to..."
    I think you have it backwards. The original context for American concepts of "freedom" was based the concept of "positive freedom"; wheras the common notion we have now is "negative freedom"(freedom from....).

    Originally America was governed by the concept of Civic Republicanism, which meant that freedom was based upon the shared parcipitation in the community to help ensure the freedom of that community. Of course in order to achieve that, certain virtues had to taught to the people in order to cultivate the ability to implement self-government.

    Of course that concept has been discarded over the past 40 years or so(actually longer, but it really takes off in this time frame).

    In the 1920's, Carl Schmitt for one noted many of the flaws of the Liberal concept(which has replaced the Republican one). For one, as he noted, the long-term survival of any legitimate political system depends on its ability to call its citizens to self-sacrifice in times of need. This notion, however, violates the individualism of Liberal thought. You cannot force a person to fight unless he actually wants to. This in effect leaves the system dangerously exposed to danger and may ultimately lead to it being defenseless.

    And Schmitt warned about the ultimate consequences of such:
    "It would be ludicrous to believe that a defenseless people has nothing but friends, and it would be a deranged calculation to suppose that the enemy could perhaps be touched by the absence of a resistance. No one thinks it possible that the world could, for example, be transformed into a condition of pure morality by the renunciation of every aesthetic or economic productivity. Even less can a people hope to bring about a purely moral or purely economic condition of humanity by evading every political decision. If a people no longer possesses the energy or the will to maintain itself in the sphere of politics, the latter will not thereby vanish from the world. Only a weak people will disappear."
    --Concept of the Political

  2. #162
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Woops. I did have it backwards.
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  3. #163
    Sniffles
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    I must say I got a real laugh reading this over at the NT private forum.

    Apparently they think they're so badass to rip on us NFs under the cover of their private forum, where we can't get them. Ohhhh dear, how fucking awful. :rolli:

  4. #164
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
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    Meh, shit happens. It's there forum, let them talk about what they want.

  5. #165
    Senior Member SuperFob's Avatar
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    "NF General Discussion Thread," eh? What's there to say about us except that we're awesome (besides the fact that we're > those pesky NT's)?

  6. #166
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Smiling, smiling.

    You know, I can see it presented both ways, wedekit and Peguy. Works for me either way and I think the end result we're dissatisfied with looks the same.

    Yeah, damn, Super. Ain't we?

    It's funny that you use the word "pesky" cuz sometimes when one of those guys is ripping on me for "logic" and "facts" the mental picture I get in my head is of a swarm of gnats. And I want to get a newspaper and go, "Shoo! You guys are annoying!"

    That focus on debate as a method of social interaction seems an attempt to control the conversation.

    And from my persective all the human qualities go down the toilet because they aren't "scientific." Don't count.

    It's frustrating.

    It feels to me like:

    Me: Please come into my world and tell me who you are.

    Tees: Either get into my world and follow my rules or go away.

    Yeah, that's how I sometimes feel with that style of interaction.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #167
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    LOL! Very well said?!! Anja.

    LOL I had the awesome pirivilage of my first debate like that being with BlueWing. It was such a stalemate!

    BW: Theoretically this makes perfect sense.
    Me: The reality is human nature prevents this from working.
    BW: Feelings aren't involved in this conversation!
    Me: Well grr!!

    It's all a bit funny looking back at it now. Infact, the argument I had last night was the male instinct V.S. The emotional instincts of a woman in a situation of fighting. The fight ended up as a stalemate of course.. But the logical "This is a more functional way of doing things.." majorly clashed with the "but it's morally right to do things this way..". I'm still not sure which side I agree with more.. I'm bias and have to think the way I do, but I very much so see the other point.
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  8. #168
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    ^^^ how funny i agree with both of you as well...haha
    acceptance and understanding is the only way to go...cuz no ones's gonna win that one.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I sometimes think that people who are rigidly fixed in the "scientific" fail to notice all the obvious truths which play out in the world all around us. And being "big picture" people it seems to me that we can see both sides - the spiritual and the mental, whereas they only see the mental.

    It's like some totally miss the human factor. Edit: Well, and are truly baffled by it. (Which is why they don't want to talk about it?) Puts them at a "win" disadvantage?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  10. #170
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Peguy, you're kind of interesting because it seems to me that you straddle both worlds with some balance.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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