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  1. #41
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalMethod View Post
    Hmm, but wouldn't you say, deep down, there are core values and a general belief of what is good and what is wrong?

    Indeed those are influenced by our parents, our culture, but,

    Still, when you listen to your heart, it tells you what is wrong and what is right, wouldn't this be considered the 'foundation of your personality'? The 'foundation of "me"'?
    [slight blathering]

    Not necessarily to me. I think it's because I don't have an absolute clear-cut "this is me and this is what I stand for" view of myself. It's a little odd to imagine things that way. Yes, I have a core set of values, but I realise they coincide with so many other people's values that it's almost impossible to distinguish which ones were there first. I can tell you what I will probably say is right and wrong, but I'm not definite about it. I'm overly aware of varying perspectives and can easily feel what would be right and wrong for a very different person from myself. While seeing things from another perspective doesn't necessarily change what I originally thought about the situation, it does put a wet blanket over my certainty on the matter.

    The main trouble is in telling which set of values were there first and where those values came from. It's probably a useful thought exercise to make those distinctions, but it's just not something that's terribly important to me. Organising my inner values and knowing which ones are mine wouldn't really help me in any major way. Sure, it'd be nice to know--a fun fact, but as far as I'm concerned, if I end up making reasonable decisions that benefit as many involved as possible, I don't particularly care when and where the values originated. Yet, I usually don't doubt that the right ones are there. I suppose I place a greater trust on my unconscious to sort through and pick up some of the pretty good ones so that my conscious mind may then decide to keep or disgard.

    And there are some values I feel very strongly about. However, I consider them as basic values that hold true for most human beings operating in a relatively peaceful society. Which is to say, they aren't exactly mine...they're more a part of a collective thought process that many humans share and are generally based on creating win-win situations, satisfying the self in an efficient manner, and not performing actions that will endanger the self.

    [/blathering]
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  2. #42
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    [slight blathering]

    Not necessarily to me. I think it's because I don't have an absolute clear-cut "this is me and this is what I stand for" view of myself. It's a little odd to imagine things that way. Yes, I have a core set of values, but I realise they coincide with so many other people's values that it's almost impossible to distinguish which ones were there first. I can tell you what I will probably say is right and wrong, but I'm not definite about it. I'm overly aware of varying perspectives and can easily feel what would be right and wrong for a very different person from myself. While seeing things from another perspective doesn't necessarily change what I originally thought about the situation, it does put a wet blanket over my certainty on the matter.

    The main trouble is in telling which set of values were there first and where those values came from. It's probably a useful thought exercise to make those distinctions, but it's just not something that's terribly important to me. Organising my inner values and knowing which ones are mine wouldn't really help me in any major way. Sure, it'd be nice to know--a fun fact, but as far as I'm concerned, if I end up making reasonable decisions that benefit as many involved as possible, I don't particularly care when and where the values originated. Yet, I usually don't doubt that the right ones are there. I suppose I place a greater trust on my unconscious to sort through and pick up some of the pretty good ones so that my conscious mind may then decide to keep or disgard.

    And there are some values I feel very strongly about. However, I consider them as basic values that hold true for most human beings operating in a relatively peaceful society. Which is to say, they aren't exactly mine...they're more a part of a collective thought process that many humans share and are generally based on creating win-win situations, satisfying the self in an efficient manner, and not performing actions that will endanger the self.

    [/blathering]
    Insightful..
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  3. #43
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    [slight blathering]

    Not necessarily to me. I think it's because I don't have an absolute clear-cut "this is me and this is what I stand for" view of myself. It's a little odd to imagine things that way. Yes, I have a core set of values, but I realise they coincide with so many other people's values that it's almost impossible to distinguish which ones were there first. I can tell you what I will probably say is right and wrong, but I'm not definite about it. I'm overly aware of varying perspectives and can easily feel what would be right and wrong for a very different person from myself. While seeing things from another perspective doesn't necessarily change what I originally thought about the situation, it does put a wet blanket over my certainty on the matter.

    The main trouble is in telling which set of values were there first and where those values came from. It's probably a useful thought exercise to make those distinctions, but it's just not something that's terribly important to me. Organising my inner values and knowing which ones are mine wouldn't really help me in any major way. Sure, it'd be nice to know--a fun fact, but as far as I'm concerned, if I end up making reasonable decisions that benefit as many involved as possible, I don't particularly care when and where the values originated. Yet, I usually don't doubt that the right ones are there. I suppose I place a greater trust on my unconscious to sort through and pick up some of the pretty good ones so that my conscious mind may then decide to keep or disgard.

    And there are some values I feel very strongly about. However, I consider them as basic values that hold true for most human beings operating in a relatively peaceful society. Which is to say, they aren't exactly mine...they're more a part of a collective thought process that many humans share and are generally based on creating win-win situations, satisfying the self in an efficient manner, and not performing actions that will endanger the self.

    [/blathering]
    Agreed, it just struck me I "own" so little of what is in my head...and how influenced and uncertain I am .Like you said before...But if what you say is true then some people must have agreed on it, someone must have had that idea.Plus, some values change (I've adopted so many it's dizzying thinking about it) so can we actually define ourselves as individuals by something if everything "owned" is external...except "our minds"?I was going to speculate and write too much, gotta go to school
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

  4. #44
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwigie View Post
    But we can't really say that that is all there is to us there has to be something else in my opinion.
    Don't you think there's something else?
    Yes, the "tendencies" that Kyrielle mentioned.

    Within that cluster I refer to the ambiguous unique desires and preferences that we all possess, some of which can be more biological in nature and others from... I have no idea where. It's a mystery to me and has been to psychologists for many many years, although everyone has their pet theories.

    Why do I like ice cream with lots of glop in it (although I'll try anything), while one of my friends will only eat vanilla bean and another thinks that the merger of fruit and ice cream is an abomination to God?

    Why do I get such a charge out of dry, dark, subtle, or even slapstick humor, while others laugh at those who just blatantly violate social norms or simply point out little life quirks?

    There is probably some "biological" root to everything, but the behavior and inclinations it triggers is so abstracted that it seems almost disconnected and is hard to tie down to a particular chemical or physiological response.

    Getting more into personality theory, in the Big Five, there is a biological connection for Extroversion/Introversion -- introverts need far less stimulation to get their fill than extroverts do. Hence, extroverts get out there more to build up a charge; introverts quickly get overwhelmed with too much stimulation and have to pull back. Here, a direct physical effect (neurological stimulation) impacts behavior overtly.

    That is why I liked the word "tendencies" -- because it's a matter of preference for one thing over another, and those things quickly come to dominate over time, yet "tendencies" allows for the ambiguity involved in understand those preferences. We cannot make it much more specific.

    Does that make sense?

    People who have been through the same experiences end up so different from each other. Maybe I'm just being overly teenage crisis"-ish here but I'd like to know for sure what was the other part.
    Quite right on the first part, that is why I believe we are not merely products of our environment and nature has a strong role in who we are and become.

    That part that isn't defined by experiences, environment etc, I don't think we "are" tendencies, I know people from similar backgrounds that are wildly different. I'm probably being annoying with all my questions but really, apart from all that is determined by the outside what isn't?What makes us who we are?
    I think I might just have not been clear enough on what I meant by tendencies, because I agree with what you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwigie View Post
    It's impossible to live without other people, human beings are sociable by nature...Sure the size varies every now and then but that's about it.
    Exactly. And the most overt sign of this is LANGUAGE.

    We learn how to communicate by being around other human beings. Without other human beings, we do not learn language and nuance.

    And language impacts ability to think. We construct thoughts in our head with language. The language actually drives the thinking sometimes. The more language someone has, the more complex thoughts they create and can examine.

    Language is a Big Deal. And it is necessarily a social thing -- we get it from those who came before us.

    Hermits are usually rejected from society or have excluded themselves by their own will or have "weird circumstances"... With no human interaction I heard that in most cases the child dies before reaching adulthood...(hm that was depressing.Wow, we are so off topic right now...>.>)He isn't even able to communicate with people if he has not been taught how to speak...I heard this in a case in economy class, we were studying "socialization".
    It's very true. Feral kids are really interesting to examine. With them, you get an idea of how much of a human being is "programmed" and what happens when you're not stimulated -- whether it is a kid raised by monkeys or wolves, or just one who has been locked in the basement for 16 years by deranged parents. Once you miss the window of opportunity, the brain freezes up and it's much harder to learn and impossible to reach the level of skill one might have reached otherwise.

    You also get Harlow's monkeys, where he deprived (in various experiments) baby monkeys of their mother's affections and love, and charted the results. Pretty horrible stuff. And they didn't affix to the metal food dispensers, they preferred the terrycloth mom who was tactilely present.


    ... to get back to OP topic, I'd say that when discussing the chameleon thing, we are examining what parts of us are just mirrors of others (and in some sense fake) versus what parts are naturally us. That is where it ties into a discussion of whether behavior is nature or nurture.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623 View Post
    Fe just has more effects on NFJ than NFP
    thats because Fe has close to 0% effect on XNFPs lol so your right.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwigie View Post
    When someone talks to you, or interacts with you any other way...
    1. You start to imitate their demeanor(ex: talk faster, copy accents..)
    2. Your mood immediately shifts to suit the visitor momentarily..
    3. You feel that their words are "penetrating?" and that you can't escape.
    4. You do your best to make them at "ease".
    But with all that accommodation, as soon as they leave you go on straight to your starting point, whatever that was.
    ^^Basically you develop over 15 facades a day that you shed one after the other and we could say that deep down, none of this has actually affected you in any way?You're pretty "hard and unshakable" in there.
    Um, yeah... I guess so. I don't think of them as facades, though I suppose they might be. It's mostly sort of an effort to "speak their language". I'm not pretending the language is my own native language, though.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalMethod View Post
    I mean, core values.

    I understand what you're saying though.

    But we don't exactly have the need to share our values with people who are not close to us, or who hold no influence over us. It would almost be considered wasting our time. I assume.

    What do you mean though when you say, the rest of the world?

    I think what is important is... even though people do not show their values to people who hold small influence over their lives, they do tend to protect their values when they are threatened.
    By the rest of the world I mean any individual who does not share the same values as you. It seems apparent to me that I and others confide these things to people who think similarly to them.

    Yes, we do tend to protect our values but those actions you take to protect your values is what you are saying is the "self"? Or is that just a mask?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwigie View Post
    When someone talks to you, or interacts with you any other way...
    1. You start to imitate their demeanor(ex: talk faster, copy accents..)
    2. Your mood immediately shifts to suit the visitor momentarily..
    3. You feel that their words are "penetrating?" and that you can't escape.
    4. You do your best to make them at "ease".
    But with all that accommodation, as soon as they leave you go on straight to your starting point, whatever that was.
    ^^Basically you develop over 15 facades a day that you shed one after the other and we could say that deep down, none of this has actually affected you in any way?You're pretty "hard and unshakable" in there.
    As is stated in the thread before, it is pretty much Fe in action..
    But I relate completely. It's just that I don't see them as facades anymore. It's the way I accommodate myself to people, something natural. It does feel once I exit the conversation/situation that they haven't touched me much. But in the quiet down time I do notice how some thoughts and words, attitudes have stuck with me, and I do know for one that interaction with other defines and changes me. It might be because I lack those clear values and mine are more instincts and hunches (albeit strong) that adapt. But they always change back to the form they used to be. Kind of like what Kyrielle said.

    But I do change myself as you've described. It's just not something I'm open to confess as it is not seen as a good trait around here, even though tact is appreciated. I think everyone does this to an extent, whether consious of it or not. Although conformity is a different thing.. Fi folks, please don't stone me because of the last sentence.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    Um, yeah... I guess so. I don't think of them as facades, though I suppose they might be. It's mostly sort of an effort to "speak their language". I'm not pretending the language is my own native language, though.
    Me neither...actually I have a strange relationship to language.I do not speak my native language..just understand it somehow,I speak French mostly, french with an "anonymous" accent, and I speak English with that "tainted" french.The result is usually a big blank on people's idea of where I come from.I don't feel like any language is mine..
    However,I carry those accents and sometimes even transform them depending on who I'm hanging around with.
    Sade(cool name I love that singer), I am love confessions=receiving and giving them.
    Meh, "Individuality" is overrated sometimes(At least here in NY),so much it actually becomes "mainstream"?You're right people associate it individuality and non conformism.(Anti-communist heritage maybe?I remember being struck by how being yourself, an individual, original was stressed to me when I came here o.O)
    but seriously my mind is flying different directions today..
    If that makes sense:
    basically some people try so hard to stand out that sometimes the "genuine" individuality is lost,sadly.(Watch the packs of teenagers who promote "Do your own thing" Wanting to do your own thing for the sake of being different.)
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

  10. #50
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, the "tendencies" that Kyrielle mentioned.

    Within that cluster I refer to the ambiguous unique desires and preferences that we all possess, some of which can be more biological in nature and others from... I have no idea where. It's a mystery to me and has been to psychologists for many many years, although everyone has their pet theories.

    Why do I like ice cream with lots of glop in it (although I'll try anything), while one of my friends will only eat vanilla bean and another thinks that the merger of fruit and ice cream is an abomination to God?

    Why do I get such a charge out of dry, dark, subtle, or even slapstick humor, while others laugh at those who just blatantly violate social norms or simply point out little life quirks?

    There is probably some "biological" root to everything, but the behavior and inclinations it triggers is so abstracted that it seems almost disconnected and is hard to tie down to a particular chemical or physiological response.

    Getting more into personality theory, in the Big Five, there is a biological connection for Extroversion/Introversion -- introverts need far less stimulation to get their fill than extroverts do. Hence, extroverts get out there more to build up a charge; introverts quickly get overwhelmed with too much stimulation and have to pull back. Here, a direct physical effect (neurological stimulation) impacts behavior overtly.

    That is why I liked the word "tendencies" -- because it's a matter of preference for one thing over another, and those things quickly come to dominate over time, yet "tendencies" allows for the ambiguity involved in understand those preferences. We cannot make it much more specific.

    Does that make sense?



    Quite right on the first part, that is why I believe we are not merely products of our environment and nature has a strong role in who we are and become.



    I think I might just have not been clear enough on what I meant by tendencies, because I agree with what you are saying.



    Exactly. And the most overt sign of this is LANGUAGE.

    We learn how to communicate by being around other human beings. Without other human beings, we do not learn language and nuance.

    And language impacts ability to think. We construct thoughts in our head with language. The language actually drives the thinking sometimes. The more language someone has, the more complex thoughts they create and can examine.

    Language is a Big Deal. And it is necessarily a social thing -- we get it from those who came before us.



    It's very true. Feral kids are really interesting to examine. With them, you get an idea of how much of a human being is "programmed" and what happens when you're not stimulated -- whether it is a kid raised by monkeys or wolves, or just one who has been locked in the basement for 16 years by deranged parents. Once you miss the window of opportunity, the brain freezes up and it's much harder to learn and impossible to reach the level of skill one might have reached otherwise.

    You also get Harlow's monkeys, where he deprived (in various experiments) baby monkeys of their mother's affections and love, and charted the results. Pretty horrible stuff. And they didn't affix to the metal food dispensers, they preferred the terrycloth mom who was tactilely present.


    ... to get back to OP topic, I'd say that when discussing the chameleon thing, we are examining what parts of us are just mirrors of others (and in some sense fake) versus what parts are naturally us. That is where it ties into a discussion of whether behavior is nature or nurture.
    Agreed, thanks for "putting me back on track":P,your post makes sense to me.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

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