[ENFP] ENFP Old Souls??

[Moiety]

ALSO----I think "Live and let live" actually does connote a philosophy of non-intervention in society at large.

I wholeheartedly embrace the concept of "Live and let live"---which is quite different from "Get involved and change the world."

I have high ideals but little desire to impose them on others--therefore, "Live and let live."

Exactly, and that is my stance. And yes, I have little to no experience in all those things you've mentioned before. Which doesn't really matter because I'm already a proponent of the "jaded" approach to life. In a broader, social context anyways - I do have a clear idea of what I want and will fight for my personal dreams.

In fact, I'd say all those things you mentioned...yeah I like to just ignore the naysayers. If I ever have to give up on or change my dreams, it will be because that was my life's natural progression and not because I took heed of inherently subjective third party advice.


That being said I do always like to hear the stories of older ENFPs. I'm 22 btw.

 

[Laurie]

The confusion is probably caused by the wildly innacurate stereotype of ENFPs as hyperactive party people.

That, and all the ENTPs and ESFPs out there who mistype themselves/claim to be ENFPs.

So true.

I try to convince people (who know better) that I'm ESFP. Sad me. Sounds like life would be so much easier. Of course my sister's life isn't easier, just different struggles.

 

[Wonkavision]

In fact, I'd say all those things you mentioned...yeah I like to just ignore the naysayers. If I ever have to give up on or change my dreams, it will be because that was my life's natural progression and not because I took heed of inherently subjective third party advice.

Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.

That's why the best advice I can give to people who know and/or love an ENFP is to just respect their right to figure things out on their own---To offer helpful information, but not directives.

ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.

On the other hand, any attempt to force an ENFP to change will result in disaster, as the ENFPs are ultimately determined to do things their own way---and will resent any attempt to stop them.

Because ENFPs are so determined to figure things out on their own, the outside observer can sometimes only see chaos and recklessness, but ENFPs generally know what they're doing.

Their passionate belief in personal freedom is buffered by strong sense of fairness, altruism, and ethics, so they are not as unreliable or unpredictable as they may seem.

Their tendency to expose themselves to potentially dangerous people and situations is buffered by a strong intuition and self-preservation or survival instinct, so they are not as reckless or helpless as they may appear to be.

My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.

I hope all the non-ENFPs are taking notes.

 

[Lady_X]

very cool posts wonka and sy..i love it. totally true.

 

[jtanSis1]

perhaps personality type determines what type of soul level you are at, and maybe NF's are near the higher end.

 

[Kalach]

Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.

That's why the best advice I can give to people who know and/or love an ENFP is to just respect their right to figure things out on their own---To offer helpful information, but not directives.

ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.

On the other hand, any attempt to force an ENFP to change will result in disaster, as the ENFPs are ultimately determined to do things their own way---and will resent any attempt to stop them.

Because ENFPs are so determined to figure things out on their own, the outside observer can sometimes only see chaos and recklessness, but ENFPs generally know what they're doing.

Their passionate belief in personal freedom is buffered by strong sense of fairness, altruism, and ethics, so they are not as unreliable or unpredictable as they may seem.

Their tendency to expose themselves to potentially dangerous people and situations is buffered by a strong intuition and self-preservation or survival instinct, so they are not as reckless or helpless as they may appear to be.

My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.

I hope all the non-ENFPs are taking notes.

In practice I won't disagree with any of this. 'Cept for the dumb part about directives: if I can't direct, I can't speak.

Thus, the bit that doesn't quite fit with the libertarian cra-, um, philosophy: when the ENFP wants to take part in something.

They might end up directed.



I wonder if that's a big or a small quibble with the overall point. Can't tell. I'm just defending my preference to sometimes tell people what to do.

 

[garbage]

That being said I do always like to hear the stories of older ENFPs. I'm 22 btw.

Just turned 25, so.. not that much older. But some quick thoughts..

I constantly get told that I seem older than I actually am. I think part of it comes from my tendency to want to mentor most everyone in some capacity, which makes me seem wise. Really, it's just a drive to connect with and help other people.

I've also noticed that fully tapping into Ne involves taking advantage of life's coincidences, finding valuable and positive reasons for past suffering, and making connections between your (or another person's) past experiences and present situations which allows one to deal with seemingly new experiences relatively quickly.

If one gets past the immature "slacker/procrastinator" parts of the P attitude, those traits are very valuable assets that can make one seem old inside, especially when combined with a drive to understand oneself and to help other people.

 

[nameBRAND]

Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.

That's why the best advice I can give to people who know and/or love an ENFP is to just respect their right to figure things out on their own---To offer helpful information, but not directives.

ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.

On the other hand, any attempt to force an ENFP to change will result in disaster, as the ENFPs are ultimately determined to do things their own way---and will resent any attempt to stop them.

Because ENFPs are so determined to figure things out on their own, the outside observer can sometimes only see chaos and recklessness, but ENFPs generally know what they're doing.

Their passionate belief in personal freedom is buffered by strong sense of fairness, altruism, and ethics, so they are not as unreliable or unpredictable as they may seem.

Their tendency to expose themselves to potentially dangerous people and situations is buffered by a strong intuition and self-preservation or survival instinct, so they are not as reckless or helpless as they may appear to be.

My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.

I hope all the non-ENFPs are taking notes.

Although I'm not the person this post was directed, I had a great appreciation for it.

 

[Scott N Denver]

So I just read the link to the mature soul, and I must say I related with it FAR more than with the Old Soul descriptions. [Note: just because I relate to something, or don't, does not mean that I do, or do not, believe it.]

Do people here think that ENFP's are usually old souls, and also that INFP's are usually mature souls? Personally, I'd expect the reverse of that. IME, and maybe this is just the ENFP's I've met, I think ENFP's have nothing on INFP's when it comes to soul-searching. More well-put, I think ENFP's skim the surface but talk about it more, while INFP's are generally deeper in their contemplations but don't usually feel a need to talk about it. Many times I've chewed something over, brought it up with an ENF, and heard them say "I don't want to think about that", "that's too deep for me", or "I don't want to know that about myself".

Also, any thought's on how _NTP's usually fit into this. ENTP's are perspective junkies too, right.

My idea of an ENFP contemplating life is someone at a coffee shop telling their friends, "OMG, you won't believe what I was thinking about yesterday, what if we are all connected by some like mysterious power, kinda like the Force in Star Wars, except cooler and crazier and...."
whereas, for contrast, my idea of an INFP contemplating life is sitting on one's bed thinking, or reading through some thick deep religious/philosophical/spiritual tome. For example, have I mentioned lately how many of the Upanishad's I've read, or how much of the Zen/Chan canon, or the Daoist canon, or of Tibetan Buddhism, or....And I don't go to coffee shops. But several ENFP's I've met do, but as far as I know never read anything more than, say, zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, or the Tao of pooh. Nothing against those books, but simply put they are not the Ashtavakra Gita, or The Diamond Sutra, or the Bodhisattvacatarya, or....

Again, I am not trying to put down ENFP's. I love you all, your a lot like us [INFP's], except that you like actually talk [obviously we talk too, but probably not nearly as much] and have an impact on people [well, we do too, but on a lot less people I think]. Obviously there are other differences as well, but my overall point there is that ENFP's are sorta like socially effective version of INFP's if INFP's talked more and stuff.

 

[Scott N Denver]

Quoting from the mature soul link: " Old souls, on the other hand, have pretty much given up on the world in a material sense,"

and from the old soul page of the above link:
"there is often a tiredness about them that prevents much expenditure of effort. They are quieter than younger people,..., and are more subdued in their manner of expression. They have mellowed out considerably compared to their younger days. The energy and excitement of youth is mostly gone."

Nothing about that says to me E_FP, or Ne dom. Aren't ENFP's usually considered kinda sparkly and enthusiastic and energetic? Isn't everything supposed to be new and interesting from a Ne Dom perspective? Okay, "everything" is probably stretching it, but the point remains "Ooh, we could do this..." and "Oh how neat, check out this new way of doing..." are the opposite in my mind of "I've given up on the world"

Does the old soul description sound more like a description of an older, and say crankier, ISTJ? "Bah humbug, you kids these days..." or something like that.

 

[ergophobe]

Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.

You really hit a nerve with this one. It describes my core beliefs well. I've also found that once my values are betrayed by an outside party, it's almost impossible to trust them again.

ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.

Very well said. Perspective junkies - I'm stealing that one because it's a perfect fit.

 

[Soar337]

What about INFP? I'm sure I'm one. Or at least in the very, very last realms of mature.

 

[Scott N Denver]

Very well said. Perspective junkies - I'm stealing that one because it's a perfect fit.

I've seen this in books before, but dont recall at the moment where

What about INFP? I'm sure I'm one. Or at least in the very, very last realms of mature.

Wonkavision and I had some discussion on this issue earlier in this thread.

Others may of course disagree, but I am inclined to think that ENFP's think about stuff like this less and talk about it more, whereas INFP's think about it more but talk about it less. And since talking about stuff is how others tell that you are thinking about it, ENFP's get more social credit/acknowledgement.

 

[ilovelurking]

Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.

That's why the best advice I can give to people who know and/or love an ENFP is to just respect their right to figure things out on their own---To offer helpful information, but not directives.

ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.

On the other hand, any attempt to force an ENFP to change will result in disaster, as the ENFPs are ultimately determined to do things their own way---and will resent any attempt to stop them.

Because ENFPs are so determined to figure things out on their own, the outside observer can sometimes only see chaos and recklessness, but ENFPs generally know what they're doing.

Their passionate belief in personal freedom is buffered by strong sense of fairness, altruism, and ethics, so they are not as unreliable or unpredictable as they may seem.

Their tendency to expose themselves to potentially dangerous people and situations is buffered by a strong intuition and self-preservation or survival instinct, so they are not as reckless or helpless as they may appear to be.

My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.

I hope all the non-ENFPs are taking notes.

Thank you, Wonka. This is very insightful.

I have an ENFP bestfriend, who lives in another country. (Was my manager at my former workplace.) I sense that these are the values she lives by. Others do seem to see the "chaos and recklessness" and I don't believe what's on the surface is entirely true.

As a J, I am more directive in my approach and I'm a service-oriented person. I do notice that being informative works even better in my line of work. I'm learning to be more informative as model-ed by her.

Once again, many thanks for your insight!

 

[Wonkavision]

In practice I won't disagree with any of this. 'Cept for the dumb part about directives: if I can't direct, I can't speak.

Thus, the bit that doesn't quite fit with the libertarian cra-, um, philosophy: when the ENFP wants to take part in something.

They might end up directed.



I wonder if that's a big or a small quibble with the overall point. Can't tell. I'm just defending my preference to sometimes tell people what to do.

Of course you are directive--you're an INTJ.

What I said was:

My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.

You can be directive all you want, but an ENFP is motivated by Fi--so the ENFP is ultimately going to reject any directives which do not gel with her/his internal reasoning(personal values).

(Of course, I'm talking about adults here, not children, who are, theoretically, not fully differentiated. People under a certain age may not have developed strong preferences yet.)

When an ENFP does actually follow directives, that means that the ENFP found a personal reason for doing it.

Even if you have legitimate authority over an ENFP (boss, parent, legal authority, etc.), the only reason they will follow any of your directives is if they personally see value in following them.

This is basic Fi.

It might appear that they ended up "directed," because you can't see their deeper motivations, but they are very much guided/motivated by their own internal reasoning---not external principles, opinions, or demands.

Furthermore---ENFPs are dominant Ne.

The interaction between Dominant Ne and Secondary Fi is confusing to a lot of people.

They find themselves wondering whether the ENFP is a rebel or a follower.

If you observe an ENFP, you will probably think you see evidence for both---and you might conclude that the ENFP is fickle, or unsure of themselves, or inconsistent, etc. etc.

The answer, I believe, is that the ENFP is a "Cooperative Individualist."

We're primarily open-minded and agreeable, yet ultimately motivated by strong personal values.
(Again--I'm talking about adults.)

An ENFP may appear to give in easily to the demands of others because they are so adaptable and open-minded, and personally motivated to be as agreeable as possible.

Being this way is consistent with Dominant Ne and Secondary Fi---but it looks inconsistent to people with different preferences.


Long story short---You can be directive all you want, but don't assume the ENFP is being "directed."

That is an illusion.

Failure to understand that can lead to all kinds of mistakes when dealing with ENFPs.

I'm just providing information.

You can take it or leave it.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I really saw myself in that description (and I read it all ). So according to that I most definately have an old soul. To me it felt like most of it corresponds with being a strong N??

Nope. My N is around 90%, and I feel young young young young young. I can't identify with anything in this thread, except for the parts about being perceptive (there's the N).

 

[Kalach]

Long story short---You can be directive all you want, but don't assume the ENFP is being "directed."

That is an illusion.

Failure to understand that can lead to all kinds of mistakes when dealing with ENFPs.

I'm just providing information.

You can take it or leave it.

Actually, an hour or so ago I was talking on the phone with a friend. She's ENFP. Some guy she knew has popped up again, and she was asking if back when he was an issue I had thought she actually loved him. I laughed. She said she knew I'd laugh. I said, "Well, back then, you never actually showed anything other than being upset." And then it occurred to me, when she'd be talking about the guy a minute or so earlier she'd been saying not what she felt but what she knew he thought. It occurred to me as odd. So I mentioned it. And she said, yeah, she gets opinions from other people and that's how she learns things. Which seemed a bit bizarre. So I said some day she would have to have her own opinion. And then I had to go into some convoluted thing about how having your own opinion is slightly different from knowing all the opinions and choosing the best one. It had to be convoluted because I had to make some distinction between active and passive choice (and try to avoid the idea that actively seeking so many opinions is in fact active choice...) Anyway, then she got a call from Beijing and she said we'd talk later.

That kind of thing makes it easy to talk to an ENFP. I don't have to actually know what's true, I just toss out things I notice and finish with a "you can..." or "you should..." or whatever. She doesn't actually ignore it. Nor actually does she follow the instruction. Those two things together make it easy, even valuable, to talk with her. She'll hear and choose for herself, so I can speak, which is cool, I can care and show interest in what I want to, but I don't have to go so hard into thinking for another person that I'm responsible for her choices.

So, yeah, I worked out some time back that "you should..." means "here's what I think (and at the same time I'm impressed that you're going to choose for yourself too even though I know a lot of those choices are going to be damn silly even though they're honest and necessary and life wouldn't be life if you didn't make them)...." It's easier saying "you should..." and leaving it at that.

 

[Pristinegirl]

I have the energy and optimism of a young soul but the wisdom of an old soul.

My dreams resemble a young soul, but my nostalgic love for the good old days (when I was not even 'born') resemble an old soul.

 

[the state i am in]

N doms tend to see way into the future (N = imaginative, forward thinking, possibilities). the Ni doms tend to see way back into the past too. they are old souls, and often the philosophers of history. Ne dom are more in touch with the unexpired possibilities of the present, seeing branches grow and trees age and die in real time. so they seem timeless. N perceptions are more complexly interwoven, there are more less objects but far more threads connecting everything, etc.

infps and intps feel enduring in a different way as the leaders in the world of values. Ti in logic and Fi in personal humanistic values. everyone tho is part of a long-line of projects and games and discourses continually refining and adapting themselves, even if much stays the same over the course of history's changes and the different needs of poeples and places.

 

[ergophobe]

Going back and reading the original post, I'd agree with Blahblahnounblah. I feel much more like a young soul rather than an old soul. If I honestly felt like I couldn't make much of a contribution, however small, to the world I inhabit, or have an infinite number of experiences I look forward to, I'd likely lose my reasons to live. Change is central to being and the only constant.