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  1. #81
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    You can be directive all you want, but an ENFP is motivated by Fi--so the ENFP is ultimately going to reject any directives which do not gel with her/his internal reasoning(personal values).

    (Of course, I'm talking about adults here, not children, who are, theoretically, not fully differentiated. People under a certain age may not have developed strong preferences yet.)

    When an ENFP does actually follow directives, that means that the ENFP found a personal reason for doing it.

    Even if you have legitimate authority over an ENFP (boss, parent, legal authority, etc.), the only reason they will follow any of your directives is if they personally see value in following them.

    .
    Wonka what if you have an enfp in a coorporate environment where they must comply even if it violates a sense of Fi idealism?

    For me-this translates as I must do something I am directed to, not unethical, just stupid-however I can NeTe see the long term poor strategic, logistic, and operational implications of the choice. I can then NeFi see how it will cause stress, sufferring and unhappiness in others. So I MUST do the thing, yet I know it will perpetuate unhappiness.

    Another ENFP I work with has my same job and we are both stuck at this junction. We must comply yet Fi screams. We end up being disheartened, sluggish and apathetic. "why do anything above and beyond the absolute required to reduce suffering, when we just did something massive that will increase suffering.

    On the converse-I posted a thread about "whiny, apathetic ISTJs" awhile back. In this situation it is TeFi in reverse. They can clearly see the Te operational stupidity of said choice, and they respond with a sense of childlike Fi remorse. "why attempt anything efficient, when you never listen to what I say in the first place" They will not respond openly but become passive aggressive and build walls out of regulations.

    Most of the decision makers are TiFe and utterly lack the ability to understand the strategic, operational impacts, let alone the human impacts of the choices they make.

    This innate miscommunication forms the basis of an organizational war. Interesting to watch.

    And yes, I have always been told I have an old soul. Even as young as three, strangers would approach my mom and grandmother and say this.

  2. #82
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post

    Wonka what if you have an enfp in a coorporate environment where they must comply even if it violates a sense of Fi idealism?
    The ENFP would either find a way to live with the decision, or defile her/his conscience, I guess.

    ENFPs are Dominant Ne, not Dominant Fi----so they're very flexible and adaptable, aren't they?

    I know I am.

    I can often find ways to reconcile seemingly conflicting ideas.

    When I can't find a way, I either refuse to comply, or I do comply and end up defiling my conscience.

    In the long run, I can't stand having a bad conscience, so I am usually willing to rebel and face the consequences, rather than comply with something I'm against.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    The ENFP would either find a way to live with the decision, or defile her/his conscience, I guess.

    ENFPs are Dominant Ne, not Dominant Fi----so they're very flexible and adaptable, aren't they?

    I know I am.

    I can often find ways to reconcile seemingly conflicting ideas.

    When I can't find a way, I either refuse to comply, or I do comply and end up defiling my conscience.

    In the long run, I can't stand having a bad conscience, so I am usually willing to rebel and face the consequences, rather than comply with something I'm against.
    This is why I disagree that developing Fi is necessarily the best way for an ENFP to mature. I think developing Te is good as well for two reasons : it helps to deal with this kind of dilemma, by presenting an alternative, and it gives you more control over yourself when stressed.

    In extreme cases Fi will always win. But there's a spectrum.

    Besides...healthy Te isn't in direct opposition to Fi. Healthy Te isn't raw, it's tempered. Good leaders are good because they curb their followers' Fi elegantly. They don't offend anyone's values.

  4. #84
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    This is why I disagree that developing Fi is necessarily the best way for an ENFP to mature. I think developing Te is good as well for two reasons : it helps to deal with this kind of dilemma, by presenting an alternative, and it gives you more control over yourself when stressed.

    In extreme cases Fi will always win. But there's a spectrum.

    Besides...healthy Te isn't in direct opposition to Fi. Healthy Te isn't raw, it's tempered. Good leaders are good because they curb their followers' Fi elegantly. They don't offend anyone's values.
    Really?

    How could Te possibly help an ENFP to decide what to do in an ethical dilemma?


    You said:

    it helps to deal with this kind of dilemma, by presenting an alternative
    Ne would present alternatives, but I don't see how Te would do that.

    And you said:

    and it gives you more control over yourself when stressed
    Te isn't concerned about the self at all.

    It focuses outwardly, on other people and things.


    Fi would give you control over yourself.



    (I am, of course, talking about ENFPs here--The other types would use different functions.)

    I honestly don't know where you are getting your ideas about functions, but I'm basing mine on Personality Type: An Owner's Manual, by Lenore Thomson, and from several sites on the internet.

    I can provide links if you're interested.
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  5. #85
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I would like to preface the following by stating I know incredibly little about the functions, but...

    Fi is my guiding light, my inner force.

    Ne is my "eyes" so to speak.

    And Te helps me wade through the shit.

    Make sense?
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  6. #86
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Really?

    How could Te possibly help an ENFP to decide what to do in an ethical dilemma?
    By introducing a certain level of "The ends sometimes justify the means" into the equation. Assuming Fi is always the best course of action is assuming our own values are the very best way to deal with the world at all times. They aren't. We are all flawed. Thinking in terms of the context, learning to forgo personal bias is sometimes beneficial to the group, and in the long run beneficial to us personally because of that.


    Ne would present alternatives, but I don't see how Te would do that.
    I meant an alternative to pure Fi. An alternative way to deal with the same problem. It's pretty close-minded to think our values are the very best or fairest way to deal with the world. Te helps to temper our own biases a bit.

    Fe is yet an another alternative to deal with the problem. But I advise against it simply because the very issues arise from the fact there is ethical bias at play (and Fe would just be another form of ethical bias). Enter logic and impartiality. Not always the best option, but sometimes the lesser of two evils.


    Te isn't concerned about the self at all.

    It focuses outwardly, on other people and things.


    Fi would give you control over yourself.
    Tertiary Te kicks in when we are stressed. Tertiary functions tend to be used in an unhealthy way when we are young. But as we mature, we learn to use them in a healthier manner. So, by being more at ease with sometimes using Te....progressively being more willing to do so and doing it in a more magnanimous way towards others...you start to become more at peace with it's use because it's helping you balancing out your Fi values.

    Very crude Te usage in a young ENFP is the bad side of Te. There is a good side though, which is impartiality and working towards a goal. Trying to be more that way is sure to help you be less of immature ENFP that simply goes "Fuck off!" when in stress. Rationality evens out irrationality. Balance.


    I honestly don't know where you are getting your ideas about functions, but I'm basing mine on Personality Type: An Owner's Manual, by Lenore Thomson, and from several sites on the internet.
    On what I've read on these forums. And on logic. I don't like to take the word of any one author in particular.


    Also, Te can look at Fi for motivation. Like...Fi dictates the goals and Te enacts the plan to reach said goals. They don't have to necessarily be in direct opposition.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soleil View Post
    Any old souls here, anyone ? I'm sorry if this topic was done before. I know I have an old soul. It's hard for an old soul to live in a young soul world.
    soleil, thanks so much for this topic. I did very much so enjoy reading your topic. I have it on fairly good authority that I am an old soul. It is frustrating being an old soul in a young soul world, at times, but boy do the sparks fly when you find another old soul!

    Otherwise, yep, it's sort of like a waiting game while I wait for the rest of my soul to recombine. That doesn't mean we should eschew our responsibility to continue making decisions, as being an old soul in a young soul world is an experience intended for all of us. But you know you're old-hat when you just can't feel anything but love for all humans, old and youngling alike, young if only for their inexperience.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
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  8. #88
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post

    On what I've read on these forums. And on logic. I don't like to take the word of any one author in particular.
    Ok, but I don't understand your conception of how functions work---or why you seem to think that developing inferior functions is equally important as developing the secondary function.

    I'm not saying that Lenore Thomson or the other sources I'm drawing from are unquestionably correct---but I do have some tangible sources, and what they say makes sense to me.

    Is there anything you can point me to so I can understand your point of view?

    Do you have any sources?

    I'm having difficulty following your explanations.
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  9. #89
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post

    Fi is my guiding light, my inner force.

    Ne is my "eyes" so to speak.
    I get that part.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post

    And Te helps me wade through the shit.

    Make sense?

    No, it doesn't make sense to me. But that's OK.
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  10. #90
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Te is the facilitator of my ability to critically think.

    Te is a processing mechanism.

    Fi is a deeply seated intuition.

    Te helps me explain my Fi, make sense?

    Sorry at work.

    Will try to explain later.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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