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  1. #71
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.


    You really hit a nerve with this one. It describes my core beliefs well. I've also found that once my values are betrayed by an outside party, it's almost impossible to trust them again.



    ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

    They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

    In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.
    Very well said. Perspective junkies - I'm stealing that one because it's a perfect fit.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Soar337's Avatar
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    What about INFP? I'm sure I'm one. Or at least in the very, very last realms of mature.
    <3

  3. #73
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Very well said. Perspective junkies - I'm stealing that one because it's a perfect fit.
    I've seen this in books before, but dont recall at the moment where


    Quote Originally Posted by Soar337 View Post
    What about INFP? I'm sure I'm one. Or at least in the very, very last realms of mature.
    Wonkavision and I had some discussion on this issue earlier in this thread.

    Others may of course disagree, but I am inclined to think that ENFP's think about stuff like this less and talk about it more, whereas INFP's think about it more but talk about it less. And since talking about stuff is how others tell that you are thinking about it, ENFP's get more social credit/acknowledgement.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Yeah, that's important for an ENFP, I think----to know that if you change the way you do things, that it was totally voluntary, and based on new knowledge or experience, and a shifting of priorities rather than a betrayal of values.

    That's why the best advice I can give to people who know and/or love an ENFP is to just respect their right to figure things out on their own---To offer helpful information, but not directives.

    ENFPs learn by directly experiencing things and then processing their experiences, adding them to an ever-growing "Big Picture" about how life works.

    They are open to all kinds of information, and will actively seek multiple perspectives on things and see how they can incorporate them into their way of doing things.

    In a way--ENFPs are perspective-junkies, often seeking out the most possible ways of seeing things, so as to have the maximum options to choose from.

    On the other hand, any attempt to force an ENFP to change will result in disaster, as the ENFPs are ultimately determined to do things their own way---and will resent any attempt to stop them.

    Because ENFPs are so determined to figure things out on their own, the outside observer can sometimes only see chaos and recklessness, but ENFPs generally know what they're doing.

    Their passionate belief in personal freedom is buffered by strong sense of fairness, altruism, and ethics, so they are not as unreliable or unpredictable as they may seem.

    Their tendency to expose themselves to potentially dangerous people and situations is buffered by a strong intuition and self-preservation or survival instinct, so they are not as reckless or helpless as they may appear to be.

    My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.

    I hope all the non-ENFPs are taking notes.

    Thank you, Wonka. This is very insightful.

    I have an ENFP bestfriend, who lives in another country. (Was my manager at my former workplace.) I sense that these are the values she lives by. Others do seem to see the "chaos and recklessness" and I don't believe what's on the surface is entirely true.

    As a J, I am more directive in my approach and I'm a service-oriented person. I do notice that being informative works even better in my line of work. I'm learning to be more informative as model-ed by her.

    Once again, many thanks for your insight!

  5. #75
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    In practice I won't disagree with any of this. 'Cept for the dumb part about directives: if I can't direct, I can't speak.

    Thus, the bit that doesn't quite fit with the libertarian cra-, um, philosophy: when the ENFP wants to take part in something.

    They might end up directed.



    I wonder if that's a big or a small quibble with the overall point. Can't tell. I'm just defending my preference to sometimes tell people what to do.
    Of course you are directive--you're an INTJ.

    What I said was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post

    My point is that ENFPs feel that they MUST figure things out on their own, and MUST do what they personally believe is right, regardless of what others think, and that people can only really influence an ENFP with an INFORMATIVE, rather than DIRECTIVE approach.
    You can be directive all you want, but an ENFP is motivated by Fi--so the ENFP is ultimately going to reject any directives which do not gel with her/his internal reasoning(personal values).

    (Of course, I'm talking about adults here, not children, who are, theoretically, not fully differentiated. People under a certain age may not have developed strong preferences yet.)

    When an ENFP does actually follow directives, that means that the ENFP found a personal reason for doing it.

    Even if you have legitimate authority over an ENFP (boss, parent, legal authority, etc.), the only reason they will follow any of your directives is if they personally see value in following them.

    This is basic Fi.

    It might appear that they ended up "directed," because you can't see their deeper motivations, but they are very much guided/motivated by their own internal reasoning---not external principles, opinions, or demands.

    Furthermore---ENFPs are dominant Ne.

    The interaction between Dominant Ne and Secondary Fi is confusing to a lot of people.

    They find themselves wondering whether the ENFP is a rebel or a follower.

    If you observe an ENFP, you will probably think you see evidence for both---and you might conclude that the ENFP is fickle, or unsure of themselves, or inconsistent, etc. etc.

    The answer, I believe, is that the ENFP is a "Cooperative Individualist."

    We're primarily open-minded and agreeable, yet ultimately motivated by strong personal values.
    (Again--I'm talking about adults.)

    An ENFP may appear to give in easily to the demands of others because they are so adaptable and open-minded, and personally motivated to be as agreeable as possible.

    Being this way is consistent with Dominant Ne and Secondary Fi---but it looks inconsistent to people with different preferences.


    Long story short---You can be directive all you want, but don't assume the ENFP is being "directed."

    That is an illusion.

    Failure to understand that can lead to all kinds of mistakes when dealing with ENFPs.

    I'm just providing information.

    You can take it or leave it.
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    IT'S BEEN FUN.

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    PEACE OUT!!!


  6. #76
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownAway View Post
    I really saw myself in that description (and I read it all ). So according to that I most definately have an old soul. To me it felt like most of it corresponds with being a strong N??


    Nope. My N is around 90%, and I feel young young young young young. I can't identify with anything in this thread, except for the parts about being perceptive (there's the N).

  7. #77
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Long story short---You can be directive all you want, but don't assume the ENFP is being "directed."

    That is an illusion.

    Failure to understand that can lead to all kinds of mistakes when dealing with ENFPs.

    I'm just providing information.

    You can take it or leave it.
    Actually, an hour or so ago I was talking on the phone with a friend. She's ENFP. Some guy she knew has popped up again, and she was asking if back when he was an issue I had thought she actually loved him. I laughed. She said she knew I'd laugh. I said, "Well, back then, you never actually showed anything other than being upset." And then it occurred to me, when she'd be talking about the guy a minute or so earlier she'd been saying not what she felt but what she knew he thought. It occurred to me as odd. So I mentioned it. And she said, yeah, she gets opinions from other people and that's how she learns things. Which seemed a bit bizarre. So I said some day she would have to have her own opinion. And then I had to go into some convoluted thing about how having your own opinion is slightly different from knowing all the opinions and choosing the best one. It had to be convoluted because I had to make some distinction between active and passive choice (and try to avoid the idea that actively seeking so many opinions is in fact active choice...) Anyway, then she got a call from Beijing and she said we'd talk later.

    That kind of thing makes it easy to talk to an ENFP. I don't have to actually know what's true, I just toss out things I notice and finish with a "you can..." or "you should..." or whatever. She doesn't actually ignore it. Nor actually does she follow the instruction. Those two things together make it easy, even valuable, to talk with her. She'll hear and choose for herself, so I can speak, which is cool, I can care and show interest in what I want to, but I don't have to go so hard into thinking for another person that I'm responsible for her choices.

    So, yeah, I worked out some time back that "you should..." means "here's what I think (and at the same time I'm impressed that you're going to choose for yourself too even though I know a lot of those choices are going to be damn silly even though they're honest and necessary and life wouldn't be life if you didn't make them)...." It's easier saying "you should..." and leaving it at that.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #78
    Member Pristinegirl's Avatar
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    I have the energy and optimism of a young soul but the wisdom of an old soul.

    My dreams resemble a young soul, but my nostalgic love for the good old days (when I was not even 'born') resemble an old soul.

  9. #79
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    N doms tend to see way into the future (N = imaginative, forward thinking, possibilities). the Ni doms tend to see way back into the past too. they are old souls, and often the philosophers of history. Ne dom are more in touch with the unexpired possibilities of the present, seeing branches grow and trees age and die in real time. so they seem timeless. N perceptions are more complexly interwoven, there are more less objects but far more threads connecting everything, etc.

    infps and intps feel enduring in a different way as the leaders in the world of values. Ti in logic and Fi in personal humanistic values. everyone tho is part of a long-line of projects and games and discourses continually refining and adapting themselves, even if much stays the same over the course of history's changes and the different needs of poeples and places.

  10. #80
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Going back and reading the original post, I'd agree with Blahblahnounblah. I feel much more like a young soul rather than an old soul. If I honestly felt like I couldn't make much of a contribution, however small, to the world I inhabit, or have an infinite number of experiences I look forward to, I'd likely lose my reasons to live. Change is central to being and the only constant.

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