[INFJ] Why are INFJs so Manipulative?

[Starry]

do u feelz Ne-mbti affinity vs Fi repulse?

Ne affinity... I have an amazing respect for...well all of the types but INFJs are family.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]
Stop posting rep comments on my posts.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]
Stop posting rep comments on my posts.

What? Do you mean stop repping? The way ^this is written it makes it seem perhaps that I'm sharing the content of reps in posts which I most certainly haven't. Nor have I rep;ped you excessively wtf? But considering you and I never communicate...I'll give this a shot. And...way to be creepy and manipulate/spin a story. Kinda puts everything into perspective for me...(and I'd stay away from a career in counseling if I were you.) Good luck.

 

[1487610420]

What? Do you mean stop repping? The way ^this is written it makes it seem perhaps that I'm sharing the content of reps in posts which I most certainly haven't. Nor have I rep;ped you excessively wtf? But considering you and I never communicate...I'll give this a shot. And...way to be creepy and manipulate/spin a story. Kinda puts everything into perspective for me...(and I'd stay away from a career in counseling if I were you.) Good luck.

*cough*OP*cough*

 

[the state i am in]

manipulation happens when we don't recognize how needy we are. we don't see how demanding/sneaky/desperate we are in doing ANYTHING possible to try to meet our needs, even in poorly conceived ways that prevent us from meeting them well.

whenever our strategies to get our needs met are shitty and don't consider other people, don't respect them, don't hold that space when we remember what they are experiencing too (or follow the rules we have made to help us navigate that skillfully), we get more manipulative.

sopmetimes the rules we've made and the models for how things work/ought to work we have for navigating the world of other people don't gel well with others. at times, there can be really basic lessons missing, but at other times, things are just REALLY specific and have specific ways of crossing boundaries that others are surprised to have violated by us.

no matter what, however we find our way into the situation, we're using assumptions to get any idea of what is going on. the assumptiosn are just in different forms and come from different ways of thinking/being ourselves.

people with less space and less flexibility generally run into more trouble. having self-trust and a basic grounding in oneself, and having real momentum through life that allows you to approach meeting needs with a little bit of surplus rather than a constant sense of overhwelming debt makes a big difference in giving that space and flexibility. it also makes it easier to explore and examine without the push-back of negative internalization looming over you.

(as for the moral superiority card, it seems like a lot of people use it; some people seem genuinely more surprised when using it and then realizing that they were in the wrong because they've put more effort into constructing that identity and are shocked or like a fish out of water when that form of ego doesn't protect them in the way that they've invested in. to me, there's nothing inherently wrong with this, it just happens sometimes when we constrict and can't really take in new information properly, like an emotional cramp. it's but one of many, many ways this happens, and it shows how important it is to be able to focus enough to truly examine situations sometimes as strategically as possible, not out of a defensive place but out of a constructive one).

 

[Fidelia]

I think of course that any type can be manipulative and as others have said before, are often unaware of how they are using others to get their needs met. Often there is some element of their sense of self that they are trying to get validation for, while doing something that they honestly think is altruistic or in the other person's best interests. It's usually that sense of need in the giver that makes us feel manipulated. If we're being honest, all of us have been guilty of doing this stuff sometime or another.

I'd say it's much rarer to see someone who is consciously manipulating others for their own gain, but again, I think this is another manifestation of trying to get ones need met in an inappropriate way. Those needs may be conscious or unconscious.

The third possibility is how one person or type experiences another's way of interacting. I'd argue that what may be seen as being manipulative, may in fact, not be, if you were able to experience the world in the way the other person does.

I'm doubtful that a whole type (even something like say ENTPs) are inherently manipulative, but I agree that certain types may have particular traits or tendancies that would make certain people experience them that way. To me, the first two categories are very person specific. The third is dependent more on the combo of people and the experiences that each bring with them that affect their perceptions.

 

[Starry]

manipulation happens when we don't recognize how needy we are. we don't see how demanding/sneaky/desperate we are in doing ANYTHING possible to try to meet our needs, even in poorly conceived ways that prevent us from meeting them well.

whenever our strategies to get our needs met are shitty and don't consider other people, don't respect them, don't hold that space when we remember what they are experiencing too (or follow the rules we have made to help us navigate that skillfully), we get more manipulative.

sopmetimes the rules we've made and the models for how things work/ought to work we have for navigating the world of other people don't gel well with others. at times, there can be really basic lessons missing, but at other times, things are just REALLY specific and have specific ways of crossing boundaries that others are surprised to have violated by us.

no matter what, however we find our way into the situation, we're using assumptions to get any idea of what is going on. the assumptiosn are just in different forms and come from different ways of thinking/being ourselves.

people with less space and less flexibility generally run into more trouble. having self-trust and a basic grounding in oneself, and having real momentum through life that allows you to approach meeting needs with a little bit of surplus rather than a constant sense of overhwelming debt makes a big difference in giving that space and flexibility. it also makes it easier to explore and examine without the push-back of negative internalization looming over you.

(as for the moral superiority card, it seems like a lot of people use it; some people seem genuinely more surprised when using it and then realizing that they were in the wrong because they've put more effort into constructing that identity and are shocked or like a fish out of water when that form of ego doesn't protect them in the way that they've invested in. to me, there's nothing inherently wrong with this, it just happens sometimes when we constrict and can't really take in new information properly, like an emotional cramp. it's but one of many, many ways this happens, and it shows how important it is to be able to focus enough to truly examine situations sometimes as strategically as possible, not out of a defensive place but out of a constructive one).

It feels awesome to see you.


I'm just asking/saying this rhetorically based on the fact you mentioned manipulation born of ineffective strategies for getting our needs met. I've seen in my work a disturbing and significant rise in instances where what would previously perhaps be deemed deceptive, unhealthy manipulation has seemingly become the effective, accepted strategy if that makes sense. I mean, I feel we are confused here. But I work with people everyday that are struggling because they won't resort to manipulative strategies. I'm not saying I'm seeing this correctly but I've even experienced this same feeling. The thought that going about things the way we have been taught...honesty, loyalty, dedication, roll-up-your-sleeves hard work...no longer yields what it is believed to yield. <-And in order to get that...you *work the system* I fear in some way that it is all a manipulation now. I hope that made sense. People manipulate because that produces the desired results...period. idk.

 

[cascadeco]

It feels awesome to see you.


I'm just asking this rhetorically based on the fact you mentioned manipulation born of ineffective strategies for getting our needs met. I've seen in my work a disturbing and significant rise in instances where what would previously perhaps be deemed deceptive, unhealthy manipulation has seemingly become the effective, accepted strategy if that makes sense. I mean, I feel we are confused here. But I work with people everyday that are struggling because they won't resort to manipulative strategies. I'm not saying I'm seeing this correctly but I've even experienced this same feeling. The thought that going about things the way we have been taught...honesty, loyalty, dedication, roll-up-your-sleeves hard work...no longer yields what it is believed to yield. <-And in order to get that...you *work the system* I fear in some way that it is all a manipulation now. I hope that made sense. People manipulate because that produces the desired results...period. idk.

(brief hijack, hope you don't mind. This reminds me of a small subset of people who 'game' the retail/customer service industry and if you push back at all, they cry foul and push it back on you, going on a tirade, pulling the 'your customer service skills are terrible' card. The sort who'd then call higher ups, complain, and get a $50 gift card. That sort of character. I think some are deliberately playing the whole system, though a few might be completely deluded and genuinely think they are being accosted and played no role in the matter. Though whether this is narcissism or not (I have read narcissists actually do feel they are doing no wrong?), don't know. It happened to me today, and I knew the minute a comment I made came out of my mouth I was in for it, but too late by that point, ha. I just let him rant at me.)

 

[Fidelia]

Certainly there are many people that do that. For the sake of this particular discussion I left out that possibility, simply because I don't see the type of behaviour cascadeco described being a likely default for many infjs. On the other hand, I suppose for unhealthy infjs or ones with poor character, it's not at all implausible that they may find what works to get the desired result and take advantage of that in the way Starry described.

 

[Starry]

(brief hijack, hope you don't mind. This reminds me of a small subset of people who 'game' the retail/customer service industry and if you push back at all, they cry foul and push it back on you, going on a tirade, pulling the 'your customer service skills are terrible' card. The sort who'd then call higher ups, complain, and get a $50 gift card. That sort of character. I think some are deliberately playing the whole system, though a few might be completely deluded and genuinely think they are being accosted and played no role in the matter. Though whether this is narcissism or not (I have read narcissists actually do feel they are doing no wrong?), don't know. It happened to me today, and I knew the minute a comment I made came out of my mouth I was in for it, but too late by that point, ha. I just let him rant at me.)

No, this is exactly what I'm talking about...a piece of so many pieces that I think are getting away from us in a big way (taken on a life of its own.) And what's funny is I just experienced the effects of this sickness from the opposite end. I have a small storage unit on automatic payment but never provided them my new card number...nor did I open the notification letter they sent regarding payment because I just thought it was another ad in the endless sea of ads. So they have already...after just one month cut my lock and it is scheduled to go to auction at the beginning of next month or whatever. <-And in my mind I'm like...damn. Gone are the days of "She's been a great customer...never missed a payment...never had a late payment...let's give it a little more time." Still...I see this as my fault so I call the place...tell the guy what happened and ask what I need to do to get my account current, etc. <-The guy literally couldn't understand that I was admitting it was my fault...my oversight...and all I wanted to do was pay. Like, to my "How do I get my account current?" he says "Well, we sent you a late notification on 4/17..." After a good number of back and forths of this...I was finally like..."Sir, are you not getting that I'm saying this is my fault and I just want to pay?" You could tell that he just didn't get it...couldn't wrap his brain around the concept... I had to help him past this in order to get him to a place he could help me...I'm not even kidding. It was weird.

 

[cascadeco]

Certainly there are many people that do that. For the sake of this particular discussion I left out that possibility, simply because I don't see the type of behaviour cascadeco described being a likely default for many infjs. On the other hand, I suppose for unhealthy infjs or ones with poor character, it's not at all implausible that they may find what works to get the desired result and take advantage of that in the way Starry described.

I'll post more broadly in case it's not clear to everyone else reading my posts, but all of my posts are about manipulation in a general sense -- which cuts across all types, it's not a type related thing (though each type may have its own methods/defaults/'specialities', ha). So I haven't been speaking of infj's specifically in any of my posts.

 

[Starry]

Certainly there are many people that do that. For the sake of this particular discussion I left out that possibility, simply because I don't see the type of behaviour cascadeco described being a likely default for many infjs. On the other hand, I suppose for unhealthy infjs or ones with poor character, it's not at all implausible that they may find what works to get the desired result and take advantage of that in the way Starry described.

Whoops I missed this. What is described in the OP...I've seen all types under the sun do that same thing...although it might have a Feelery slant. I can't imagine there being INFJ specific manipulation...

 

[cascadeco]

No, this is exactly what I'm talking about...a piece of so many pieces that I think are getting away from us in a big way (taken on a life of its own.) And what's funny is I just experienced the effects of this sickness from the opposite end. I have a small storage unit on automatic payment but never provided them my new card number...nor did I open the notification letter they sent regarding payment because I just thought it was another ad in the endless sea of ads. So they have already...after just one month cut my lock and it is scheduled to go to auction at the beginning of next month or whatever. <-And in my mind I'm like...damn. Gone are the days of "She's been a great customer...never missed a payment...never had a late payment...let's give it a little more time." Still...I see this as my fault so I call the place...tell the guy what happened and ask what I need to do to get my account current, etc. <-The guy literally couldn't understand that I was admitting it was my fault...my oversight...and all I wanted to do was pay. Like, to my "How do I get my account current?" he says "Well, we sent you a late notification on 4/17..." After a good number of back and forths of this...I was finally like..."Sir, are you not getting that I'm saying this is my fault and I just want to pay?" You could tell that he just didn't get it...couldn't wrap his brain around the concept... I had to help him past this in order to get him to a place he could help me...I'm not even kidding. It was weird.

Ah, that stinks. Sorry to hear that. It's easy in customer service to start getting jaded and to think a certain customer is trying to scam, but really it's poor service and unprofessional/uncalled for to do that to someone you have no reason to suspect, with no history of it occurring.

I'm not even going to say my comment to the customer this morning was appropriate, as it wasn't, but although I think he deserved it due to his behavior that prompted it, I'm not gonna say it was the 'right' thing for me to do. Just a moment of weakness, as I've seen him pull the same stuff time and again for over a year.

 

[Starry]

Ah, that stinks. Sorry to hear that. It's easy in customer service to start getting jaded and to think a certain customer is trying to scam, but really it's poor service and unprofessional/uncalled for to do that to someone you have no reason to suspect, with no history of it occurring.

I'm not even going to say my comment to the customer this morning was appropriate, as it wasn't, but although I think he deserved it due to his behavior that prompted it, I'm not gonna say it was the 'right' thing for me to do. Just a moment of weakness, as I've seen him pull the same stuff time and again for over a year.

My only pain is that I hate talking on the phone and that call was 95% longer than I thought it would be. In my mind I was thinking...this guy is so completely programmed to expect people in my situation to be calling in to try and get out of late fees, put the blame on the company, etc. that it took him a while to understand I wasn't doing that. Like I truly believe that is what occurred...which is just... wow. I felt sorry for him.

******
The only thing I notice my Mom and sister do that seems a little more type specific...I saw my ex do this too... (Fe probably?)... Is to turn people into the bad guy...that they have wronged...after the fact.

So they do something thoughtless, inconsiderate, shitty, etc. to another person...apparently don't want to face that in themselves (like for my Mom it is her image of never having harmed another living soul)...and so now they suddenly don't like the person or there's some sort of put-down process.

^^That's the only thing I've noticed where there may be a slight correlation between type and technique...but even here I could be totally wrong.

 

[the state i am in]

consciously or unconsciously gets messy. people are conscious of some things and not conscious of others. so the whole of the situation, sometimes, has some blind spots that make it all tricky. even then, some of the reactions that just start to happen make the sense of intentional or not tricky too. if we don't wade thru our feelings, listen to ourselves, and generally commit to a practice of finding balanced perspective, we're probably not going to know what's going on with very much clarity and reflexivity, all the way thru the situation inside-out.

starry, it's tough for me to make such big generalizations, but i do think there are a few starting points to think thru. one being that many of us live in a relatively impersonal, too-big space to really have a grounded, present, belonging-driven sense of community. another thing is that we don't have very organized shared moral commitments or views, so there's not a lot of active, shared values commitments and attempts to regulate or guide behaviors unless it is directly breaking the rules. there's not a lot of viable platforms to guide those conversations from the perspective of need and healthy life (rather than profit). just looking at the white house, the shameless is kinda out of control. and there's not enough tensegrity in the social fabric to say, no, not good enough. we keep this out. i don't really know what constructive moral dialogue looks like. but i do feel the absence of it leaves a big gap without a lot of checks and balances on motives that need to be integrated rather than ramped up for exploitation.

 

[Starry]

consciously or unconsciously gets messy. people are conscious of some things and not conscious of others. so the whole of the situation, sometimes, has some blind spots that make it all tricky. even then, some of the reactions that just start to happen make the sense of intentional or not tricky too. if we don't wade thru our feelings, listen to ourselves, and generally commit to a practice of finding balanced perspective, we're probably not going to know what's going on with very much clarity and reflexivity, all the way thru the situation inside-out.

starry, it's tough for me to make such big generalizations, but i do think there are a few starting points to think thru. one being that many of us live in a relatively impersonal, too-big space to really have a grounded, present, belonging-driven sense of community. another thing is that we don't have very organized shared moral commitments or views, so there's not a lot of active, shared values commitments and attempts to regulate or guide behaviors unless it is directly breaking the rules. there's not a lot of viable platforms to guide those conversations from the perspective of need and healthy life (rather than profit). just looking at the white house, the shameless is kinda out of control. and there's not enough tensegrity in the social fabric to say, no, not good enough. we keep this out. i don't really know what constructive moral dialogue looks like. but i do feel the absence of it leaves a big gap without a lot of checks and balances on motives that need to be integrated rather than ramped up for exploitation.

Yah...see 1,000 likes.

It is really challenging for me to take a broad social portrait and know where to begin breaking down the connections. I often can't even find the words to describe the glimpses I have of the smaller pieces and branches...but so often you guys can and it is so helpful. It's like having a song stuck in your mind that you can't remember the name for...and then someone says..."Oh that's..." relief. Thank you.

 

[1487610420]

Yah...see 1,000 likes.

It is really challenging for me to take a broad social portrait and know where to begin breaking down the connections. I often can't even find the words to describe the glimpses I have of the smaller pieces and branches...but so often you guys can and it is so helpful. It's like having a song stuck in your mind that you can't remember the name for...and then someone says..."Oh that's..." relief. Thank you.

omg, how could u

 

[Trash Panda]

injfs are the worst

 

[1487610420]

injfs are the worst

quick, get inside

 

[Dreamer]

quick, get inside

Oh, I've seen this before... Don't get in [MENTION=28147]Trash Panda[/MENTION]! Phobik is going to close the door behind you and trap you inside. I would know, it's happened to me... In my mind hahaha