[INFJ] Why are INFJs so Manipulative?

[virtualinsanity]

Maybe I've just met really unhealthy INFJs, which is a shame, but there is an INFJ I know who always tries to manipulate others and make himself seem like the "good guy" and throws himself a pity party/tries to gain the sympathy of others. He doesn't seem very genuine or honest, and I feel like he's always trying to blame others/something for saying things that don't make sense/changing stories.

Why?!

These are the exact traits of a Narcissist.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I was just reading a post where you were talking about trust and I related. I like and enjoy many...and trust so very, very few. This is not the orientation most people have is what I've come to understand. I mean, I think it is a popular thing to say these days... To say it is almost a declaration of independence, strength and a decent degree of wit ..."Trust no one." <-Trust no one and you will never be the fool.

The truth is...is for most people trust and appreciation must go hand and hand...grow or diminish side by side. I think people often don't know in a "trust no one" environment...just how much trust they have actually extended another person until it is broken and that pain and embarrassment and shame comes rushing in.

Most of the damage I've heard of...are the stories of the shame and embarrassment of broken trust. With regards to TypoC...I guess I can say I know of a handful that have been lost to the MIA thread. But yah...I've heard all kinds of terrible stories that involve more than broken trust.

People are animals - and trust dynamics function the same. A person may love hyenas, but that affection goes hand in hand with self-preservation, even among hyenas. The two cannot be separated in nature and rarely are.

The social dynamics of humanity are artificial by many natural standards and so everyone ends up a fool to some extent at some point. There is so much play of perception and trust. The best way to learn about humanity is to be exposed to manipulative dynamics because when behaviors are out of balance, they are especially open to observe. As they say it, "the truth will out".

I typically have a good idea about who is whom.

 

[Starry]

People are animals - and trust dynamics function the same. A person may love hyenas, but that affection goes hand in hand with self-preservation, even among hyenas. The two cannot be separated in nature and rarely are.

The social dynamics of humanity are artificial by many natural standards and so everyone ends up a fool to some extent at some point. There is so much play of perception and trust. The best way to learn about humanity is to be exposed to manipulative dynamics because when behaviors are out of balance, they are especially open to observe. As they say it, "the truth will out".

I typically have a good idea about who is whom.

Well then you must be accepting of both I imagine. Those that create the bullshit...and those that call it out. I envy you in a way. I have a deep appreciation for nature but would never leave a child, friend, brother, sister to the elements.


*edit...the more I consider this philosophy the more backwards it becomes and reflects the exact opposite of how our species made it this far. I am grateful none of my ancestors said "the best way to learn about predators vs prey is to go stand in the middle of the savanna and see who comes and tears you limb from limb."

 

[meowington]

1. For a lot of people Fe comes across as manipulative by default.
2. Some people with Fe as dom or aux really are manipulative. Why that is really depends on the individual I suppose.

 

[kotoshinohaisha]

That sucks. Just ignore that kind

 

[Lady Lazarus]

I wish I could talk to more people that are connected to e6 counterphobia about this because it is absolutely horrendous isn't it?

Indeed. A few years ago, she finally did the something really fucked up I suspected she was fully capable of long before that. I don't know how people can stand to do what she did to other people. How it doesn't drive them crazy. No one has ever seemed as bothered by her as me. Not even now.

Also re: the connection, on several occasions people have tried to justify my subtle link to 6 counterphobia by making me a 1w9. Coincidentally, the only person I have ever punched in the face (for being too self-righteous) is a 1w9. I think that says everything.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

Manipulate them back.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Well then you must be accepting of both I imagine. Those that create the bullshit...and those that call it out. I envy you in a way. I have a deep appreciation for nature but would never leave a child, friend, brother, sister to the elements.

*edit...the more I consider this philosophy the more backwards it becomes and reflects the exact opposite of how our species made it this far. I am grateful none of my ancestors said "the best way to learn about predators vs prey is to go stand in the middle of the savanna and see who comes and tears you limb from limb."

Your response indicates that you have no idea what I said. Humans have been learning through observation for six million years - they have spent billions of hours watching the savannah.

Also, I don't "leave children to the elements" - I don't even drop them off in the wilderness for educational purposes.

 

[prplchknz]

Maybe I've just met really unhealthy INFJs, which is a shame, but there is an INFJ I know who always tries to manipulate others and make himself seem like the "good guy" and throws himself a pity party/tries to gain the sympathy of others. He doesn't seem very genuine or honest, and I feel like he's always trying to blame others/something for saying things that don't make sense/changing stories.

Why?!

that's not really type related, i know someone who does this and he is not an INFJ that is something else going on.

 

[Forever]

Manipulate them back.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Do INFJs see it as manipulation?

 

[Starry]

Indeed. A few years ago, she finally did the something really fucked up I suspected she was fully capable of long before that. I don't know how people can stand to do what she did to other people. How it doesn't drive them crazy. No one has ever seemed as bothered by her as me. Not even now.

Also re: the connection, on several occasions people have tried to justify my subtle link to 6 counterphobia by making me a 1w9. Coincidentally, the only person I have ever punched in the face (for being too self-righteous) is a 1w9. I think that says everything.

Reading this helps me in ways I lack the words to describe (I envy people that have that immediate vocabulary access. For me it will be 3 years later and I'll be like "Okay, now I'm ready to respond in a way that reflects my thoughts/feelings properly and in their entirety").

It can be so distracting and leave me with a significant sense of confusion to find myself in this position again. "Why am I the only person that sees this?" haha. And yes, if others do to be left wondering "Why am I the only person that sees where this leads"..."Why am I the only person that cares?" There have been times I have wanted so badly to be the type of person that can be content with merely my own bullet-dodging...but it doesn't work that way for me...and so I have been known to throw myself into the fire. It can be distracting to be in a position where you actually want the damage you want others to avoid to start happening so they might see it for themselves and avoid it.

9s. One way to keep the peace is by starting a war.

 

[Starry]

Your response indicates that you have no idea what I said. Humans have been learning through observation for six million years - they have spent billions of hours watching the savannah.

Also, I don't "leave children to the elements" - I don't even drop them off in the wilderness for educational purposes.

I have to come back to respond but started laughing at your first line because I kept thinking "you don't understand Starry I don't think..."

 

[Tigerlily]

These are the exact traits of a Narcissist.

Some traits, yes. As far as INFJ's being manipulative, any "type" can be manipulative so I wouldn't pin MBTI on the op's friend.

 

[skippythecat]

FP and FJ have different methods of manipulating others. In my opinion FJ's manipulation (can) appears more controlling and direct because of Fe. For FP, it's subtle and it's by knowing what they think others want/need (Ne) through persuasion and inspiration. Manipulation is deceitful and is used for personal gain whether it's good or bad reasons. We all do it, but it's not longer manipulation when it crosses boundaries and violate that person's value systems. I know I have manipulated others by presenting the best options and arguments but I still believe they have final decisions and back off. My FP friends like to manipulate me into sensory experiences like dancing (god I hate that stuff) but it's usually done in a joking way. Light stuff.

 

[Starry]

Your response indicates that you have no idea what I said. Humans have been learning through observation for six million years - they have spent billions of hours watching the savannah.

Also, I don't "leave children to the elements" - I don't even drop them off in the wilderness for educational purposes.

I was having a total deja vu last night as I feel like we've been through this kind of thing before. Most often you make such an incredible amount of sense to me having said the things I only wish I could say. But there was a time in the past when I had disagreed with something Salome said... and subsequently appeared to hit your radar for the first time. Salome herself actually didn't have a problem with my disagreement...but I sure had the impression at the time that you... did. <-Can I say this for certain? No...I can't because I never got to a point I understood what it was you were attempting to communicate with me. To the best of what I can interpret it just seemed you were attempting to communicate some form of dislike or disagreement with something I did or did not do or said or just me as an individual....to the point other INFJs were repping "I think she might be saying..." but none of those held the key. Once that period ended and you stopped quoting me...I went back to understanding the content of your posts in silence.

So, I'm back in and am interested in understanding. And I will tell you that my doubt with regards to your meaning did not stem from suspecting I misunderstood what you actually wrote...but from a comparison to what you have written before.

People are animals - and trust dynamics function the same. A person may love hyenas, but that affection goes hand in hand with self-preservation, even among hyenas. The two cannot be separated in nature and rarely are.

The social dynamics of humanity are artificial by many natural standards and so everyone ends up a fool to some extent at some point. There is so much play of perception and trust. The best way to learn about humanity is to be exposed to manipulative dynamics because when behaviors are out of balance, they are especially open to observe. As they say it, "the truth will out".

I typically have a good idea about who is whom.

Anthropology, Human Evolution...those are all the courses I was required to take in order to go on to never finishing Archaeology school...and I'll be honest with you...I personally subscribe to the theories that hold "observation" is quite new to our species as it requires a significant amount of leisure time with which to carry it out that I/every social theorist I've been exposed to do not believe we had until very, very recently. I definitely believe we survived primarily by discovering skills/"life hacks" on accident and subsequently passing on life's *do's and don'ts* to our offspring..just like we do today. I am definitely a "Man is a social animal" kind of evolutionary theorist.

In this way I do not see social dynamics as unnatural to us at all. I personally do not enjoy most of the dances...but I can absolutely see why the human animal is not "done dancing". I will tell you though that for someone that is always prepared to say what I mean whether I find the right words or not...I struggle with how often saying A actually means B to the person and I apparently wasn't savvy enough to know that. I said this to you back then and I will say it again now...I don't make those kinds of leaps. If someone doesn't believe in gay marriage for example...I don't automatically assume they are against homosexuality in general. I didn't automatically assume that because you appeared to be peddling the 'observation only' wares that you wouldn't step in during times of great suffering. I don't automatically assume that what people imagine is best in theory...has a practical application that translates perfectly.

What I heard you saying though...was it was best to wait around for the truth to out...and I was merely expressing I don't have that kind of time (I work with youth and young adults on a daily basis that should have had someone step in long before *the truth* came knocking). If that is not what you were communicating...then I do apologize.

 

[cascadeco]

Do you think this individual has a conscious awareness of his behavior and what he is doing? I find we as a collective often blame individuals that do what you describe as acting with purpose/awareness when most often that is not the case. It is rare that I encounter someone that is truly manipulative...and when I do it is real scary to me. Obviously I do not know but merely based on what is more common of the two...I would imagine this individual is actually experiencing his reality in this way and is truly hurting. In other words...his pain impairs his judgment and bends his experience into this shape. By his experience he is making an accurate account of what has occurred.

I tend to agree, re people who are truly consciously manipulating are in the minority.

I think what more often happens is that we as individuals perceive those who are wholly alien to our own way of being/acting as being manipulative when perhaps they aren't. There are some nasty horrible people out there, but I know for me sometimes, with some people, I might get a really repulsed feeling about something they are doing/saying, thinking they are trying to control me or convince me of something, when it's more tied to them just being 100% different from me. (it actually says more about my own triggers and how I go about things and what I do/don't like in people and interactions vs anything objectively 'wrong' about what they're doing.)

But then, ofc, some people just suck.

 

[Starry]

I tend to agree, re people who are truly consciously manipulating are in the minority.

I think what more often happens is that we as individuals perceive those who are wholly alien to our own way of being/acting as being manipulative when perhaps they aren't. There are some nasty horrible people out there, but I know for me sometimes, with some people, I might get a really repulsed feeling about something they are doing/saying, thinking they are trying to control me or convince me of something, when it's more tied to them just being 100% different from me. (it actually says more about my own triggers and how I go about things and what I do/don't like in people and interactions vs anything objectively 'wrong' about what they're doing.)

But then, ofc, some people just suck.

Totally. I really try to avoid "what it would mean if I were doing it" type thinking which is how I think we primarily get ourselves tripped-up. I think what people insist is Fe manipulation is merely a strong desire for consensus. "Should I feel this way?...Here's why I do."

When I read the OPs account conscious manipulation isn't the first thing that comes to mind because that would be some seriously low hanging conscious manipulation fruit.

 

[1487610420]

Totally. I really try to avoid "what it would mean if I were doing it" type thinking which is how I think we primarily get ourselves tripped-up. I think what people insist is Fe manipulation is merely a strong desire for consensus. "Should I feel this way?...Here's why I do."

When I read the OPs account conscious manipulation isn't the first thing that comes to mind because that would be some seriously low hanging conscious manipulation fruit.

do u feelz Ne-mbti affinity vs Fi repulse?

 

[ceecee]

Does this involve romantic or familial involvement? I've had close friends online, but I can't imagine what a person could online could accomplish anything as horrific as you all are describing - unless they became a stalker or something. I've had an online friend try to manipulate a lot of money out of me in the distant past, but I don't think them horrific for it. It was definitely mercenary, but not "fucking sick". I save the term "fucking sick" for people who manipulate others into accepting physical harm from them and other forms of violation that can actually destroy another human being. I've dealt with multiple people like that. The number of people playing emotional games online even to cause a negative emotional reaction goes far beyond what any of us could easily count. Most everyone says something cruel or just harsh to feel right, powerful, superior, for attention, a winner, etc. I've seen the majority of posters do that. The amount of manipulation that goes on during discussion is persistent and widespread - normative even. It's the exception not the rule that someone is really true.

Mine is not a romantic involvement and not online. Former family member.