[ENFJ] 14 year old ENFJ son cuts off nose to spite face

[Thursday]

your son's actions are also mine.
keep pressing the logic of eating on him.

 

[Xander]

Just to throw a spanner in the works... this could be a good thing.

Willing to pay the price of his mistakes.
Doesn't expect and perhaps resents people trying to compensate for the consequences of his actions..

I mean I know it's a bit 180 from what I said before but a modicum of this kind of behaviour would mark someone as an honourable person more so than someone in need to me.

 

[INTJMom]

Letting people down that we respect/care about can be exceptionally painful to us. Guilt tops the list of feelings I attempt to avoid.

That's a good point. I wonder what his enneagram is. Guilt is one of the motivations they talk about.

Validating his feelings is fine but remembering not to encourage the negative behaviors you are trying to help him mature with can be a sticky situation if you lean too far to either side. If you take a second to acknowledge yes he screwed up you will be better off (at least from my pov) then trying to pamper. It's really all you have to do I think.

I agree with you, but this is a boy who likes to be on time or early for things, and is responsible about getting himself out of bed and such, so this morning was a fluke, not a regular occurrence.

We can tell what you are trying to do even if you deny it. Instinct may say try to make us feel better and take care of us but for myself that is the last thing I want.

I think I will check to see what Naomi Quenck says about it. Perhaps I should treat it as an "in the grip" experience.

He really sounds par for the course and the perfectionist tendencies will probably always be there to a degree.

I agree with you. He is a lot like me in that. I guess that's why I feel so bad for him. I used to do the same thing, and I realize how stupid it is.

I kind of wish I had stayed that course. I was his age or maybe younger when I looked around one day and realized everyone was selfish. I decided that if no one else would hold themselves to such a high standard why should I? All hell broke loose then for a number of years .

Ah, yeah. That's precisely the thing that scare me to death. When he gets to the "I decided" stage it's like trying to reason with a brick wall. It's too late by then.

This could also be as simple as not wanting to look like a sissy baby with a tippy cup of milky.

I wish. He did say he didn't want to carry it around. He could have drunk it in the car.
He didn't eat the food bar either, or take it with him for later.
We have had several conversations about how he's always starving by the time lunch time comes around.
I just didn't want him to suffer with hunger pains.
And there's that study about breakfast being the most important meal of the day, etc.

 

[Kyrielle]

He probably felt really stupid and embarrassed about oversleeping and being late to school as well as being late to wake you up. It's likely he could have felt guilty enough that he wasn't hungry at the time, and since in most high schools you can't eat in class, there was no point in taking the food with him. Though when he felt a bit better, I'm sure if he was on good terms with his teachers he could have asked them if he could cram it down real fast and it would probably be allowed that one time. But he might not have wanted to ask since that could have been a little embarrassing too. Or otherwise seen as "giving in" to having woken up late.

Anyway, I think it'll just take time for him to relax. I was like him at 14 for the most part. I still freak out about being late/making mistakes, but it's finally occurring to me that there's just stuff you cannot control and there's no point in making a big deal about it and most people/bosses/teachers are generally understanding about the random uncontrollable stuff that happens. And that's a hard point to get to, because I hold myself with exceedingly high standards and I except just about everyone else to hold me to those same standards. In time, he'll realise that most people don't even expect him to perform at what he considers his "minimum." The point will then be to perform at his absolute best only when it really matters and save the rest of his energy for other more fun things.

 

[Domino]

It's like he punishes himself on purpose. He's way too rigid ... He has always been stubborn and perfectionistic. His biggest problem is controlling his desire to break things when he gets frustrated.

I relate strongly to this. Past a point, if I've gotten the bit in my teeth, I'd rather make myself miserable on my own terms than let someone help me. It's a control issue. When I feel I don't have the control I want, I get very upset. It's something that makes my ENFP twin insane. She knows enough to just let me "get it out" because otherwise it's not going to be over with.

Fe can be a big angry bear when it gets crossed up. He's just going to have to learn to contain it or refocus it into something else. To me, it's like a half-tame animal that you can work with and handle 90% of the time, but should never turn your back on. I have to consciously control my temper when it gets triggered.

Is there something that he enjoys that can defuse the frustration? I have to be alone, get my time in, do something no matter how small that makes me feel calmer or balanced. All the NFJs I know are good people, funny, creative, but wound tight.

 

[substitute]

I agree with what L4BIU says, though experience tells me you still need to calm the emotional storm before you can even have any chance at all of reaching Fe types, before they're even receptive to any advice or criticism. I've learned the hard way that trying to tell it straight to an Fe type when they're in that sorta frame of mind (panicking, highly anxious, stressed etc) tends to only result in them yelling and accusing you of being against them, they magnify and twist whatever you say to sound like you're attacking them.

You've still gotta do a hella lotta ego stroking and soothing and stuff before you can say, even in the gentlest tones, what amounts to "You screwed up, you've only yourself to blame, quit blaming others and pull your socks up, boy!"

Then again experience also tells me that there's nothing you can do to stop kids from screwing up. You can't put an old head on young shoulders, etc...

 

[INTJMom]

He probably felt really stupid and embarrassed about oversleeping and being late to school as well as being late to wake you up. It's likely he could have felt guilty enough that he wasn't hungry at the time, and since in most high schools you can't eat in class, there was no point in taking the food with him. Though when he felt a bit better, I'm sure if he was on good terms with his teachers he could have asked them if he could cram it down real fast and it would probably be allowed that one time. But he might not have wanted to ask since that could have been a little embarrassing too. Or otherwise seen as "giving in" to having woken up late.

Anyway, I think it'll just take time for him to relax. I was like him at 14 for the most part. I still freak out about being late/making mistakes, but it's finally occurring to me that there's just stuff you cannot control and there's no point in making a big deal about it and most people/bosses/teachers are generally understanding about the random uncontrollable stuff that happens. And that's a hard point to get to, because I hold myself with exceedingly high standards and I except just about everyone else to hold me to those same standards. In time, he'll realise that most people don't even expect him to perform at what he considers his "minimum." The point will then be to perform at his absolute best only when it really matters and save the rest of his energy for other more fun things.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[CzeCze]

I can kinda indentify with your son here. I am not and never was a morning person and 7am can be an unholy hour for a teenager with hormones rushing through their bodies. I know when I was a teen, I often felt frazzled and rushed in the morning and I had no desire to eat. I'm sure I was hungry, but I just couldn't register the hunger because I was so occupied by other things (irritation, anxiety, etc.). My parents would make me eat sometimes and I was like NO.

If your son normally does eat breakfast, perhaps he felt so tense about possibly being late and all that he lost his appetite?

I know this is about the larger problem, but specifically about "eating when you should" -- I know for me, if I turn down breakfast and then I smell a delicious breakfast cooking and/or see people eating in front of me, that can make me want to eat. Or if I take a first bite, then I'll want to eat.

I don't really do breakfast bars though. Or milk.

So maybe for the larger issue of "being led to water, but can't make them drink" you can slightly change the water around to make it more palatable?

Or if he's really into being valedictorian, showing him how eating a healthy breakfast helps improve school performance? I'm sure there's stuff like that on the net because that argument is the basis for 'free school lunch/breakfast' programs. Or that *not* eating regularly is correlated with poor performance in school.

Maybe that would make him at least grudgingly do things that are good for him?

 

[INTJMom]

I relate strongly to this. Past a point, if I've gotten the bit in my teeth, I'd rather make myself miserable on my own terms than let someone help me. It's a control issue. When I feel I don't have the control I want, I get very upset. It's something that makes my ENFP twin insane. She knows enough to just let me "get it out" because otherwise it's not going to be over with.

Fe can be a big angry bear when it gets crossed up. He's just going to have to learn to contain it or refocus it into something else. To me, it's like a half-tame animal that you can work with and handle 90% of the time, but should never turn your back on. I have to consciously control my temper when it gets triggered.

Is there something that he enjoys that can defuse the frustration? I have to be alone, get my time in, do something no matter how small that makes me feel calmer or balanced. All the NFJs I know are good people, funny, creative, but wound tight.

Thank you. You have described my son well. Thanks for the insight.
He's a really awesome kid. He says the sweetest things,
but when he's mad, lookout.

 

[Domino]

Thank you. You have described my son well. Thanks for the insight.
He's a really awesome kid. He says the sweetest things,
what when he's mad, lookout.

You're being very patient, Mom.

 

[disregard]

I don't think he's punishing himself. In some cases, it's "not cool" or a burden to bring food with you to school. And why beg someone to eat if they don't want to? People have to learn their own good habits.

 

[INTJMom]

I agree with what L4BIU says, though experience tells me you still need to calm the emotional storm before you can even have any chance at all of reaching Fe types, before they're even receptive to any advice or criticism. I've learned the hard way that trying to tell it straight to an Fe type when they're in that sorta frame of mind (panicking, highly anxious, stressed etc) tends to only result in them yelling and accusing you of being against them, they magnify and twist whatever you say to sound like you're attacking them.

You've still gotta do a hella lotta ego stroking and soothing and stuff before you can say, even in the gentlest tones, what amounts to "You screwed up, you've only yourself to blame, quit blaming others and pull your socks up, boy!"

Then again experience also tells me that there's nothing you can do to stop kids from screwing up. You can't put an old head on young shoulders, etc...

I agree. Sometimes it's not a matter of them screwing up.
It's just a matter of that the way they're thinking isn't helpful.

 

[substitute]

yeah Cze, I don't eat anything usually 'til about 1pm, have been that way since childhood and it never did me any harm lol

very rarely, if I've got a slow, lazy morning in, I might have coffee and some honey on toast, but not 'til I've already been awake and had my first coffee at least an hour ago.

Otherwise it's just the coffee that keeps me going 'til lunch.

I wouldn't fret too much about breakfast INTJMom, honestly... no big deal... and Pink's right, if he feels you're 'making' him do something, he'll kick against it all the more. Remember one of the main points of the teenagers' creed: do that of which thy parents disapprove, do nothing which they command if thou canst help it

 

[INTJMom]

I can kinda indentify with your son here. I am not and never was a morning person and 7am can be an unholy hour for a teenager with hormones rushing through their bodies. I know when I was a teen, I often felt frazzled and rushed in the morning and I had no desire to eat. I'm sure I was hungry, but I just couldn't register the hunger because I was so occupied by other things (irritation, anxiety, etc.). My parents would make me eat sometimes and I was like NO.

If your son normally does eat breakfast, perhaps he felt so tense about possibly being late and all that he lost his appetite?

I know this is about the larger problem, but specifically about "eating when you should" -- I know for me, if I turn down breakfast and then I smell a delicious breakfast cooking and/or see people eating in front of me, that can make me want to eat. Or if I take a first bite, then I'll want to eat.

I don't really do breakfast bars though. Or milk.

So maybe for the larger issue of "being led to water, but can't make them drink" you can slightly change the water around to make it more palatable?

Or if he's really into being valedictorian, showing him how eating a healthy breakfast helps improve school performance? I'm sure there's stuff like that on the net because that argument is the basis for 'free school lunch/breakfast' programs. Or that *not* eating regularly is correlated with poor performance in school.

Maybe that would make him at least grudgingly do things that are good for him?

I don't know. That's not what I thought it was.
I will have to see if I can ask him when he's rational, if he even wants to talk about it.

 

[INTJMom]

You're being very patient, Mom.

Thanks, Luv.

 

[Nonsensical]

typical teenager..I'm one too, but I'm just saying it may not JUST be because of his MBTI type, which ONLY ALWAYS counts for less then half of our personality, but rather that he's just a teenager. it's what we do sometimes.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Upgraded to Personal Threads. (I'll leave an expiring link.)

 

[Hexis]

My mother use to always try to push breakfest on me and normally I did eat it so when I didnt I guess it could have been strange.

But if I didnt eat it was because I wasnt hungry, not some obscure masocistic punishing myself thing. And if hes an INFJ, or at least an NF I highly doubt (as in i dont believe it would ever happen) that he felt guilty for wakeing up late, and punished himself by not eating breakfest.

Oh and I do have a son, hes only 7 months old so not as old as yours. But once hes in school I will of course push breakfeast on him but if he where to not eat it I could care less, he wont die from a lack of food for 5 hours...

 

[INTJMom]

typical teenager..I'm one too, but I'm just saying it may not JUST be because of his MBTI type, which ONLY ALWAYS counts for less then half of our personality, but rather that he's just a teenager. it's what we do sometimes.

Yeah, I hear ya, but he's been doing this since he was two.

 

[ArbiterDewey]

Personally I hate all things breakfast, especially deserts passed off as "breakfast." (donuts, pancakes) My grandparents tried to shove it down me every morning all through school. Some times I didn't mind, other times, I was completely on the defensive (especially if it contained eggs...)

Anyways, if this is a consistent problem and it rooted from him waking up late, try setting your alarm and waking him if he oversleeps. If he hates being woken up, find out why. It took my grandmother at least 13 years to understand I hate being woken by flipping on a light first thing. You want me woken up pissed, click on a light when trying to wake me.

It seems like, if your assessment is correct, that he suffers from all-or-nothing thinking. Ex: If I wake up on time, then I can eat breakfast, get to school on time, and get to class, OR if I wake up late, then I have no time for breakfast, which, if I do eat it, will make me even later to school and class. I'm actually working to correct this in myself. This paired with perfectionism (me too) is very much like punishing yourself, especially when you set unreasonable expectations such as "I must make it to school early/on time EVERY day." It's just not gonna happen. My specific case is that I'd set expectations for others and never tell them about it, so, when they'd inevitably fail, I'd become disappointed. Because of this I'd never allow people to set expectations of me, answering questions like, "When will you be there?" with, "Sometime around 8," instead of "Eight."

Don't know if this is terribly insightful/helpful, but here it is.