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  1. #51
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    There are times I hate myself and just feel better when I get a wee bit of "revenge" on myself by suffering the complete consequences for my stupid actions.
    That explains acres of things about my nearest and dearest ENFJs.. I'd never considered it as a war with themselves. It's still not logical but it now makes MUCH more sense
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #52
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    I think I tend to do the kind of thing you describe in your son. The issue isn't the food itself, but finding a way to bring my raging emotions back under control. (Also, I lose my appetite when I get agitated.)

    If I were your son, the fact that I skipped breakfast would pale beside the fact that I'd screwed up my plans and made a mess of things and failed to keep my promise to my mother. Food? That's nothing! So being asked by my mother to eat breakfast in the car as a way to Solve the Problem (and there is a Problem, and it's usually about my cosmic failure as a human being) feels a bit like being asked to put a Sponge-Bob Band-Aid on that amputated arm and get on with life.

    There may be something to the idea that he's punishing himself on purpose. There are times I hate myself and just feel better when I get a wee bit of "revenge" on myself by suffering the complete consequences for my stupid actions. He may not feel that he deserves to eat breakfast because he overslept and messed up the plans. (I don't know--just speculating, here.) Your forcing him to eat breakfast only heaps the guilt and anger back on himself. What he needs is a way to get rid of the guilt.

    Of course, from your perspective, the only real problem is that he hasn't had breakfast and he's going to be hungry. Food solves the problem, and he's just being difficult. I understand that, too. As he gets older he'll learn how to moderate his emotional responses to the actual severity of the situation.
    Thank you, faith, for your encouragement!
    Now that's it's been a while I can say that it was most likely that he just plain lost his appetite from the agitation, and he was able to scrounge up some food from someone once he was hungry, so the next time it happens, I won't worry.
    And you're right, I was mostly concerned that it would be hard for him to pay attention in school with his stomach growling.

    It was actually good that I learned this about him because it happened again recently where he was upset and didn't feel hungry. So I knew not to bug him about it. I figured he would eat when he felt better... which he did.

  3. #53
    Senior Member bronte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Do either of you have kids?
    exactly! I dont think people who dont have kids can have any idea how exasperating it can be sometimes!! Its the emotional connection we have with them that makes this all so hard.

    At the moment I have this thing about my son not dressing warm enough for the weather - my (istp) hubby just says - 'it's his look out - he's the one who will feel the cold' but I can't look at it like that - I just wish he'd put his bloody coat on! :sad: At least just for school without having to argue with him about it!!

    I find myself having to let go about some things - daughter only eats lunch about twice a week, son does all he can to get out of cleaning his teeth - I can most of the time just sigh and do minimum nagging! but the coat thing gets to me!

    and I agree with substitute about kids needing to do the opposite of what their parents ask of them alot of the time - I know that as a teenager I drove my mother insane (and there were times when I enjoyed doing so
    I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
    Maya Angelou

  4. #54
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronte View Post
    exactly! I dont think people who dont have kids can have any idea how exasperating it can be sometimes!! Its the emotional connection we have with them that makes this all so hard.

    At the moment I have this thing about my son not dressing warm enough for the weather - my (istp) hubby just says - 'it's his look out - he's the one who will feel the cold' but I can't look at it like that - I just wish he'd put his bloody coat on! :sad: At least just for school without having to argue with him about it!!

    I find myself having to let go about some things - daughter only eats lunch about twice a week, son does all he can to get out of cleaning his teeth - I can most of the time just sigh and do minimum nagging! but the coat thing gets to me!

    and I agree with substitute about kids needing to do the opposite of what their parents ask of them alot of the time - I know that as a teenager I drove my mother insane (and there were times when I enjoyed doing so
    My older son wouldn't wear a coat to school either when he was a younger teen.
    Apparently, wearing a coat isn't cool.
    He's an ISTP so he MUST be cool!
    That's just another example of how MBTT helped me be a good mother.
    Because I understood that about him, I didn't nag him, or do anything else I might have done that could have had really negative consequences in our relationship.

  5. #55
    Senior Member jackandthebeast's Avatar
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    Actually I've been told it's a T mistake that we do sometimes, to think that when the F is upset, that they want solutions to their problems. I mean they probably do in the long run, but first off and primarily, they want empathy for their feelings. They want you to listen to how they feel and validate it, stuff like "yeah I can understand you feeling that way" or "I'd feel the same in your shoes" or "loads of people have that problem, you're not alone" and stuff like that. You've got to devote some time to neutralizing the emotional stuff before they can kick their intellect into gear to start thinking about actually solving the problem.

    This is just what I've heard... I've not yet met with much success at putting it into practice...
    It's not that we don't want solutions, and just want to wallow in whatever we're feeling, but that our feelings are not necessarily going to go away just because a solution's been addressed. Sometimes a solution seems like an overly simplistic representation of the problem, or our feelings toward it, and attempts to solve it come off as not understanding us. Presenting solutions may be helpful, but introducing them right away without a show of empathy is invalidating- you're showing us that in your understanding of the simplicity of the solution you don't understand how difficult that situation might be for us, and it comes off as alienation rather than support.
    Sorry if my response was a bit redundant.
    Likes INTJMom liked this post

  6. #56
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    It's not that we don't want solutions, and just want to wallow in whatever we're feeling, but that our feelings are not necessarily going to go away just because a solution's been addressed. Sometimes a solution seems like an overly simplistic representation of the problem, or our feelings toward it, and attempts to solve it come off as not understanding us. Presenting solutions may be helpful, but introducing them right away without a show of empathy is invalidating- you're showing us that in your understanding of the simplicity of the solution you don't understand how difficult that situation might be for us, and it comes off as alienation rather than support.
    Sorry if my response was a bit redundant.
    Enlightening. Connecting to other ideas I've expressed in other threads:

    Emotions need to be expressed (for anyone, not just Fs). There needs to be a connection in order for them to be expressed. A sense of empathy. Once the emotions have been expressed, then you can go about solving the problem, cutting off the source of the emotions (or not, if the emotions are positive).

  7. #57
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    update...
    My son missed the bus this week.
    I had to give him a ride to school.
    He grabbed a food bar and a cup of milk on the way out the door.
    I didn't say a thing.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    update...
    My son missed the bus this week.
    I had to give him a ride to school.
    He grabbed a food bar and a cup of milk on the way out the door.
    I didn't say a thing.
    That's a sweet moment there.

    Positive reinforcement's a great thing. I think most I/ENFJs put too much pressure on themselves to begin with, that a little "Great job!" here and there helps relieve the pressure (reading through your posts, I can tell you're doing a great job as it is.)

    It's now up to him if wants that pressure constantly ON him. Apparently, he doesn't.

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