[ENFJ] 14 year old ENFJ son cuts off nose to spite face

[cafe]

I think you just kind of have to let them cut off their noses until they figure it out for themselves, don't you? Natural consequences are the best teacher unless the natural consequences will cause lasting harm (ie you can't teach your child the dangers of the road by letting them get run over), but being upset and missing breakfast? That's just normal life stuff. If he's still really upset about it at the end of the school day, then I'd worry.

 

[substitute]

I wish this thread hadn't been moved. It has potential to become more general about the issues of Fe types when stressed, cutting off noses etc... now it's sorta limited to being just about your son not eating his breakfast lol

 

[ptgatsby]

Sounds like me, although I didn't start till I was 3-4.

I see two major influences here.

At first,this sounds like a personality conflict, but the time horizon is wrong. Given that, chances are he's seeking severe independence (beyond what is normal). This ties in with the second - namely that he isn't getting it (and this isn't measured in practical terms, but emotional... hence: )

It also sounds like the more he does it, the more of a reaction he gets. Having started at a young age, it is likely burnt into him to do these things for reasons that he no longer understands. In the teen years, it'll appear more like independence, however that shouldn't of kicked in at such a young age, so it likely stems from some form of reinforcement. It could also relate to any parental interactions, such as him identifying with his father, and your behavior towards his father. It is less likely, given the time frame, but it could also combine together.

(Kept brief so that you can mull it over and see if it fits at all)

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

Although this is dealing with a very young ENFJ and different rules will apply I think it shows perfect examples of T/F misunderstandings. There is a wall. T's attempt to break the wall with a sledgehammer when the best strategy would actually be to dig under it. Use Ni to your advantage and don't ignore the elephant in the room so to speak.

Here is what my idea of acknowledging this would sound like:
Waking up late is a tough way to start the day. Lets get moving and see if we can get the day back on the right track. *stop talking*

This would allow me to vent if I feel like it or leave it alone. The door is open. I am an almost rigidly on time person. I know the turmoil being late can cause. I am gonna beat myself up a little bit it's what I do. Xander had a good point too....if you can get me to laugh about 'a serious situation' you will be doing pretty good. I can get all worked up at times. The people who are endeared closest to my heart are the ones who can bring the humor out in me.

 

[Xander]

Pride.

Based upon my ENFJ friend, sometimes it means more to succeed when there is adversity so much so that adding your own adversity is considered a viable tactic and others trying to remove it is considered interferring.

 

[INTJMom]

I wish this thread hadn't been moved. It has potential to become more general about the issues of Fe types when stressed, cutting off noses etc... now it's sorta limited to being just about your son not eating his breakfast lol

Thank you. I agree.

Frankly, if he doesn't want to eat breakfast because he's not hungry, I really am not such a control freak that I'm going to cram it down his throat.

However, as his mother, I am going to encourage him to eat because it's the right and healthy thing to do. And that's my job... teaching him healthy habits.

It turns out when he got to his meeting, other people had food and gave him some, so he was fine.

Those of you who said he was probably so upset he no longer felt hungry, I found out last night were right, but I'm glad he put something in his tummy when he got to school.

Sub's advice was the most helpful to me, and I will be following it from now on.

 

[INTJMom]

...
Here is what my idea of acknowledging this would sound like:
Waking up late is a tough way to start the day. Lets get moving and see if we can get the day back on the right track. *stop talking*

This would allow me to vent if I feel like it or leave it alone. The door is open. I am an almost rigidly on time person. I know the turmoil being late can cause. I am gonna beat myself up a little bit it's what I do.

That sounds like a very good suggestion. I'm going to try it.

Xander had a good point too....if you can get me to laugh about 'a serious situation' you will be doing pretty good. I can get all worked up at times. The people who are endeared closest to my heart are the ones who can bring the humor out in me.

He hates it when people try to make him laugh when he's in the middle of being mad or whatever. He feels like people are minimizing his feelings.

 

[Neo Genesis]

... and it's driving me insane!!!

[This is NOT a rant thread.}

What in the world can I do??
(I realize the solution will require long-term application.)

I'm 90% sure he's ENFJ, it's just that he's pretty observant and has a great sense of direction, so...
But otherwise, when you take in the big picture, he seems ENFJ, or even INFJ, at times.

This morning I was supposed to have him at school at 7 AM. He was supposed to wake me up at 6:15, but he overslept and woke me at 6:55. He didn't want to take the time to eat. He said he guessed he would just have to wait until lunch time (which he's always starving for, by the time it comes). So I grabbed a food bar and poured him some milk in a travel mug so he could eat in the car on the way over.

When we arrived at school, I realized he hadn't eaten, so I suggested he should bring the stuff in with him. He refused! It's like he punishes himself on purpose. He's way too rigid and I don't know how to help him!

He has always been stubborn and perfectionistic. It started when he was 2.
His biggest problem is controlling his desire to break things when he gets frustrated.
He's not "sick" enough to need medication.

Anybody had success with this??

I've done that. Its really not that big of a deal. When I was 14, I hated it whenever my parents suggested what I should do. It sounds to me that he wants to be in control over what he does, and that your suggesting that he eat something was incringing on his control. What worked for me was for my parents to ask non-threatening (to my control) questions once, then for them to drop the subject if I refused. Eventually, after a couple days I was much more receptive to the suggestions that they made. Hope this helps for future incidences.

 

[niffer]

Okay, I'm a 14 year old ENFP. Honestly I probably wouldn't want to look lame with a travel mug.

Or like...if I just woke up and was shoved into a car and was expected to eat in 5 minutes....lol, screw that right. Might as well just wait until lunch.

I have ENFJ friends. Yeah, they're just being perfectionistic. I think they might be feeling a little bad that they woke up so late having to put you through the trouble of making a bunch of extra stuff for them.

 

[faith]

I think I tend to do the kind of thing you describe in your son. The issue isn't the food itself, but finding a way to bring my raging emotions back under control. (Also, I lose my appetite when I get agitated.)

If I were your son, the fact that I skipped breakfast would pale beside the fact that I'd screwed up my plans and made a mess of things and failed to keep my promise to my mother. Food? That's nothing! So being asked by my mother to eat breakfast in the car as a way to Solve the Problem (and there is a Problem, and it's usually about my cosmic failure as a human being) feels a bit like being asked to put a Sponge-Bob Band-Aid on that amputated arm and get on with life.

There may be something to the idea that he's punishing himself on purpose. There are times I hate myself and just feel better when I get a wee bit of "revenge" on myself by suffering the complete consequences for my stupid actions. He may not feel that he deserves to eat breakfast because he overslept and messed up the plans. (I don't know--just speculating, here.) Your forcing him to eat breakfast only heaps the guilt and anger back on himself. What he needs is a way to get rid of the guilt.

Of course, from your perspective, the only real problem is that he hasn't had breakfast and he's going to be hungry. Food solves the problem, and he's just being difficult. I understand that, too. As he gets older he'll learn how to moderate his emotional responses to the actual severity of the situation.

 

[Xander]

There are times I hate myself and just feel better when I get a wee bit of "revenge" on myself by suffering the complete consequences for my stupid actions.

That explains acres of things about my nearest and dearest ENFJs.. I'd never considered it as a war with themselves. It's still not logical but it now makes MUCH more sense

 

[INTJMom]

I think I tend to do the kind of thing you describe in your son. The issue isn't the food itself, but finding a way to bring my raging emotions back under control. (Also, I lose my appetite when I get agitated.)

If I were your son, the fact that I skipped breakfast would pale beside the fact that I'd screwed up my plans and made a mess of things and failed to keep my promise to my mother. Food? That's nothing! So being asked by my mother to eat breakfast in the car as a way to Solve the Problem (and there is a Problem, and it's usually about my cosmic failure as a human being) feels a bit like being asked to put a Sponge-Bob Band-Aid on that amputated arm and get on with life.

There may be something to the idea that he's punishing himself on purpose. There are times I hate myself and just feel better when I get a wee bit of "revenge" on myself by suffering the complete consequences for my stupid actions. He may not feel that he deserves to eat breakfast because he overslept and messed up the plans. (I don't know--just speculating, here.) Your forcing him to eat breakfast only heaps the guilt and anger back on himself. What he needs is a way to get rid of the guilt.

Of course, from your perspective, the only real problem is that he hasn't had breakfast and he's going to be hungry. Food solves the problem, and he's just being difficult. I understand that, too. As he gets older he'll learn how to moderate his emotional responses to the actual severity of the situation.

Thank you, faith, for your encouragement!
Now that's it's been a while I can say that it was most likely that he just plain lost his appetite from the agitation, and he was able to scrounge up some food from someone once he was hungry, so the next time it happens, I won't worry.
And you're right, I was mostly concerned that it would be hard for him to pay attention in school with his stomach growling.

It was actually good that I learned this about him because it happened again recently where he was upset and didn't feel hungry. So I knew not to bug him about it. I figured he would eat when he felt better... which he did.

 

[bronte]

Do either of you have kids?

exactly! I dont think people who dont have kids can have any idea how exasperating it can be sometimes!! Its the emotional connection we have with them that makes this all so hard.

At the moment I have this thing about my son not dressing warm enough for the weather - my (istp) hubby just says - 'it's his look out - he's the one who will feel the cold' but I can't look at it like that - I just wish he'd put his bloody coat on! :sad: At least just for school without having to argue with him about it!!

I find myself having to let go about some things - daughter only eats lunch about twice a week, son does all he can to get out of cleaning his teeth - I can most of the time just sigh and do minimum nagging! but the coat thing gets to me!

and I agree with substitute about kids needing to do the opposite of what their parents ask of them alot of the time - I know that as a teenager I drove my mother insane (and there were times when I enjoyed doing so

 

[INTJMom]

exactly! I dont think people who dont have kids can have any idea how exasperating it can be sometimes!! Its the emotional connection we have with them that makes this all so hard.

At the moment I have this thing about my son not dressing warm enough for the weather - my (istp) hubby just says - 'it's his look out - he's the one who will feel the cold' but I can't look at it like that - I just wish he'd put his bloody coat on! :sad: At least just for school without having to argue with him about it!!

I find myself having to let go about some things - daughter only eats lunch about twice a week, son does all he can to get out of cleaning his teeth - I can most of the time just sigh and do minimum nagging! but the coat thing gets to me!

and I agree with substitute about kids needing to do the opposite of what their parents ask of them alot of the time - I know that as a teenager I drove my mother insane (and there were times when I enjoyed doing so

My older son wouldn't wear a coat to school either when he was a younger teen.
Apparently, wearing a coat isn't cool.
He's an ISTP so he MUST be cool!
That's just another example of how MBTT helped me be a good mother.
Because I understood that about him, I didn't nag him, or do anything else I might have done that could have had really negative consequences in our relationship.

 

[jackandthebeast]

Actually I've been told it's a T mistake that we do sometimes, to think that when the F is upset, that they want solutions to their problems. I mean they probably do in the long run, but first off and primarily, they want empathy for their feelings. They want you to listen to how they feel and validate it, stuff like "yeah I can understand you feeling that way" or "I'd feel the same in your shoes" or "loads of people have that problem, you're not alone" and stuff like that. You've got to devote some time to neutralizing the emotional stuff before they can kick their intellect into gear to start thinking about actually solving the problem.

This is just what I've heard... I've not yet met with much success at putting it into practice...

It's not that we don't want solutions, and just want to wallow in whatever we're feeling, but that our feelings are not necessarily going to go away just because a solution's been addressed. Sometimes a solution seems like an overly simplistic representation of the problem, or our feelings toward it, and attempts to solve it come off as not understanding us. Presenting solutions may be helpful, but introducing them right away without a show of empathy is invalidating- you're showing us that in your understanding of the simplicity of the solution you don't understand how difficult that situation might be for us, and it comes off as alienation rather than support.
Sorry if my response was a bit redundant.

 

[Costrin]

It's not that we don't want solutions, and just want to wallow in whatever we're feeling, but that our feelings are not necessarily going to go away just because a solution's been addressed. Sometimes a solution seems like an overly simplistic representation of the problem, or our feelings toward it, and attempts to solve it come off as not understanding us. Presenting solutions may be helpful, but introducing them right away without a show of empathy is invalidating- you're showing us that in your understanding of the simplicity of the solution you don't understand how difficult that situation might be for us, and it comes off as alienation rather than support.
Sorry if my response was a bit redundant.

Enlightening. Connecting to other ideas I've expressed in other threads:

Emotions need to be expressed (for anyone, not just Fs). There needs to be a connection in order for them to be expressed. A sense of empathy. Once the emotions have been expressed, then you can go about solving the problem, cutting off the source of the emotions (or not, if the emotions are positive).

 

[INTJMom]

update...
My son missed the bus this week.
I had to give him a ride to school.
He grabbed a food bar and a cup of milk on the way out the door.
I didn't say a thing.

 

[whatusername]

update...
My son missed the bus this week.
I had to give him a ride to school.
He grabbed a food bar and a cup of milk on the way out the door.
I didn't say a thing.

That's a sweet moment there.

Positive reinforcement's a great thing. I think most I/ENFJs put too much pressure on themselves to begin with, that a little "Great job!" here and there helps relieve the pressure (reading through your posts, I can tell you're doing a great job as it is.)

It's now up to him if wants that pressure constantly ON him. Apparently, he doesn't.