[MBTI General] Unreliable People

[Brendan]

"...like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor."

So I find myself living the above sentiment. The other day, a relatively new friend of mine and I expressed a desire to smoke together. Things were iffy about whether or not it would work out, as he had been fighting with his significant other for three straight days, and the previous night the fight lasted until 5 in the morning, and then he got up to go to work at 11 am, so needless to say, the man needed some sleep. I myself needed to get started on a buttload of homework. So I specifically asked him to give me a call to let me know what was up, whether we decided to hang out or not. He agreed. Plans changed and he then asked me to give him a call when I got home, and I did. When he picked up the phone, he asked if he could call me back in a few minutes. I said yes. He didn't call.

Things like this really get under my skin. They make me feel insecure and unwanted. If you can't call me back or won't, that's fine, but don't tell me that you will. It only causes me to take your word with a grain of salt. I don't like having to do that. I know enough unreliable people already, please don't add to it.

Now, being that he's my friend, and I'm at least partially aware of what's been going on in his life lately, I'm guessing that it's probably not that big of a deal. He could have easily just fallen asleep from exhaustion, he could have been arguing with his parents about whether or not i could come over, he could have gotten into another fight with his significant other, and it could simply have just slipped his mind. I can think of understandable reason after understandable reason. There's the possibility that he specifically wanted not to hang out with me, but his actions speak the complete opposite. Why would he have asked "what are you up to later," if he wanted not to hang out with me?

I know that my insecurity is misallocated here, but that's just it. I don't want to have to belittle my own insecurity. I don't want to have to think of reasons why he might not have called. Even if it's just a text message saying, "Hey, I'm not going to be able to call," it would be something I can deal with. But I hate feeling left in the dark.


Then, last night, I was supposed to hang out with my friends Sam and Davey at Sam's house. The two were supposed to get out of work at 9. We'd been in contact over the course of the day, and when I called Sam at about 9:15, he asked if I could give him an extra half hour, which was fine. Things come up, whatever. Then Davey calls and says he's still at work, but to head to Sam's at 10. Again, things come up, whatever. So I watch the last two episodes of Season 4 of Weeds.

I get to Sam's house at about 10:30, he's not there, so I call and he says give him five more minutes. I wait for 10, leave, because I'm pissed off and fed up with waiting, and twenty minutes later, he calls. Because I didn't pick up, I assume it was to ask where I was.

The math here says that 5 = 30.

So I've been friends with these guys for quite some time, and am aware that they vastly understate the amount of time they take to get anywhere. Should I have taken this into my calculations? Yes. But recently, changes have been taking place, and quite frankly, I'm fucking fed up with people telling me what they think I want to hear. I've been friends with you for years, you always tell me you're going to be earlier than you actually are, and I never complain. Can we move past the childish understatements of time? Because clearly, I don't care if you're going to take an hour and a half. But, you know, I do care if you lie to me on a regular basis. And that's what this was. A lie.

So, in conclusion. Fuck lies and the people who tell them.

 

[kuranes]

If someone consistently does these kinds of things you should unload on them and then ( if they continue doing it ) drop them as people to "make plans" with. I know some people like this, and I'm happier for having done that. If they say they are coming right over, or call to ask if we could do something immediately, then I will say "yes" or "no" to that, but no plans made in advance. Some people use that "Can I call you right back?" phrase as a way of saying "goodbye" and it drives me crazy too.

Two types of people tend to want everything to be tentative. The extremely controlling and the extremely scattered. I require them both to have some way of overcompensating ( be extremely entertaining or whatever ) that in order for me to put up with it much.

 

[Randomnity]

I have friends (and family) like that too. It irritates me a lot sometimes, though I can prevent some of it by A) making plans 1/2-1 hour earlier than needed, and B) meeting only in places where I can do other things while I'm waiting (ie my house). Or C) avoiding making plans with these people anymore, although for some of these it isn't an option (ie mom, bf, good friend ). I tend to express my annoyance every time as well, but that rarely does anything.

I don't think there's an intent to mislead you...in most cases I've found that the person really does think they'll get there when they say they will...some people just have no idea how to estimate time.

 

[ajblaise]

Let him know your annoyed or mad, with us P's, the more paranoid we are about forgetting things or sticking to plans the more reliable we are.

If I didn't have a healthy fear of leaving the oven on, I might have been swept of by fire in my sleep by now.

 

[BlownAway]

This must be a universal problem for all NF:s!? Been there too so many times too, people not doing what they promised to do, people lying. It gets under my skin and makes me angry.

But lately I've been thinking, as an NF you're an expert on interpersonal stuff, empathy and how to handle other people. Maybe someday we'll stop being angry with the less gifted and just proud of ourselves for being so great

Just curious, have you ever discussed this with your friends? I mean, really put all on the table and told them how you feel? In that case, how did they react?

 

[Jack Flak]

A good friend of mine is a walking punctuality disaster. I'll call him "Jim" for the purposes of this post. When he says he'll be there in x minutes, I start expecting him in about 4x minutes. I call this phenomenon "Jim-Time."

 

[Rachelinpa]

This must be a universal problem for all NF:s!? Been there too so many times too, people not doing what they promised to do, people lying. It gets under my skin and makes me angry.

Do you think it's just a difference in values? Like, being on time just isn't important to them and they don't translate it into how it might make us feel unimportant and unwanted? I have a hard time believing it's just an NF thing... I don't think anyone likes being stood up. At the same time, maybe we take it harder?

 

[Brendan]

This must be a universal problem for all NF:s!? Been there too so many times too, people not doing what they promised to do, people lying. It gets under my skin and makes me angry.

But lately I've been thinking, as an NF you're an expert on interpersonal stuff, empathy and how to handle other people. Maybe someday we'll stop being angry with the less gifted and just proud of ourselves for being so great

Just curious, have you ever discussed this with your friends? I mean, really put all on the table and told them how you feel? In that case, how did they react?

"...like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor."

...Not yet. I'm still considering the best way to express my desire for a change in the pattern.

A good friend of mine is a walking punctuality disaster. I'll call him "Jim" for the purposes of this post. When he says he'll be there in x minutes, I start expecting him in about 4x minutes. I call this phenomenon "Jim-Time."

LOL! My friends and I have "Davey-Time."

 

[disregard]

I've learned that being direct and honest as soon as possible is the best way to handle situations like this (and other disappointments).

"Hey, let's hang out."
"I'm going to be honest: I'm not too keen on making plans with you because of your history of flagrant unreliability."

It gives them an idea of how upset you are, it tells them what they're doing is unacceptable, it excuses you from being subjected to their shenanigans because you've addressed the issue, you get to unburden yourself of the feelings that are associated with disappointment, and they are then held to a higher standard.

 

[Brendan]

Do you think it's just a difference in values? Like, being on time just isn't important to them and they don't translate it into how it might make us feel unimportant and unwanted?

This is why I have such a hard time expressing my frustration. They're responsible for their actions or lack thereof, and I'm responsible for how I react. If I didn't care, then technically, their hypothetical tardiness or unreliability wouldn't even be an issue. But I do care. So how to move forward...

 

[Brendan]

I've learned that being direct and honest as soon as possible is the best way to handle situations like this (and other disappointments).

"Hey, let's hang out."
"I'm going to be honest: I'm not too keen on making plans with you because of your history of flagrant unreliability."

It gives them an idea of how upset you are, it tells them what they're doing is unacceptable, it excuses you from being subjected to their shenanigans because you've addressed the issue, you get to unburden yourself of the feelings that are associated with disappointment, and they are then held to a higher standard.

Yeah but I don't want to be all, "WTF?" I want to be like, "Hey, I didn't hear from you after we hung up. What happened?"

 

[Rachelinpa]

Yeah, you just need to tell them it's annoying and how it makes you feel.

And if they continue to flake out on you, you should determine whether or not you are willing to put up with that sort of treatment in the future.

Stuff like really puts a spin on whether the entire relationship is worth having or not.

 

[Rachelinpa]

Yeah but I don't want to be all, "WTF?" I want to be like, "Hey, I didn't hear from you after we hung up. What happened?"

But... you are like... "WTF?"... right?

Haha. No, I know what you're saying. I think giving them an opportunity to explain themselves is definitely a better way to go about it. That way they won't feel the need to be as defensive.

 

[disregard]

Yeah but I don't want to be all, "WTF?" I want to be like, "Hey, I didn't hear from you after we hung up. What happened?"

Well, in that situation, that would probably be more suitable.. I had in mind people that keep calling and saying they'll be there in __ minutes.

 

[INTJMom]

"...like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor."

So I find myself living the above sentiment. ...

Things like this really get under my skin. They make me feel insecure and unwanted. If you can't call me back or won't, that's fine, but don't tell me that you will. It only causes me to take your word with a grain of salt. I don't like having to do that. I know enough unreliable people already, please don't add to it.

...

So I've been friends with these guys for quite some time, and am aware that they vastly understate the amount of time they take to get anywhere. Should I have taken this into my calculations? Yes. ... Can we move past the childish understatements of time? Because clearly, I don't care if you're going to take an hour and a half. But, you know, I do care if you lie to me on a regular basis. And that's what this was. A lie.

....

First of all, I feel your pain. I don't blame you for feeling the way you do.
Secondly, you seem to be very angry about this, and there's no reason why you can't - not in anger - communicate to your friends how you feel about their inaccuracies/lies.
Thirdly, prepare to accept them the way they are.

I'm not so sure how "childish" the understatements of time actually are.
I think some Types are more prone to this than others.
I'm not sure which types though.
Surely it's the kind that try to cram as much activity into an hour as they possibly can.

I am married to an ISTP and I had to learn a long time ago that when he says he'll be home at a certain time, what he really means is that he'll leave where he is at that time and I will have to add in an extra 30 minutes for the drive time. Now this isn't all the time, this is just sometimes when he's doing chores or building projects.

At first, I was just as angry and frustrated as you are, but as soon as I learned to decipher his communication system and just add in the extra time, and I no longer had a cold or burned dinner, or whatever else, I was able to know what to expect.
And knowing what to expect was all I wanted.
But yeah. Being lied to irritates me, too.

 

[niki]

i think maybe its the P, or the combination of F and P , that often being prone to disregard the concept or importance of time he2

i have to admit that i myself often have problem with time too.. and i know many people dislike it.. and as much as i've tried to change, the behavior is just still there *sigh*

maybe i do need a real hard smack or slap in my face, a tough-love, something like that..
to make me realize that what i did was wrong?..

 

[substitute]

Dude, you don't have to be an FJ to get pissed off at this stuff. My family is full of super flakes and it absolutely maddens me every time I have to deal with them. They arrange things between them and then just expect other people involved to psychically know what they're up to. There are so many examples right off bat...

My neice E coming over from the USA for the first time in 6 years, phoning us and saying how excited she'll be to see me and my kids - especially my oldest K, who's particularly attached to her. So what does she do? Despite my many e-mails, calls and texts she doesn't answer her phone and keeps me totally in the dark about what she's planning (not even knowing where she's staying), and then all of a sudden one Sunday morning turns up on my doorstep (of my very small appartment) with 6 relatives - all of whom I hadn't seen since before I changed sex (so THAT was awkward!!!), and said they'd come round for lunch. K was at a sleepover with her friends. I said could they wait while I called to see if she could come home earlier so's not to miss them but they said they couldn't wait - they had appointments to keep!!!! - so there's me having to make an impromptu lunch for an extra 7 adults right the day before my next week's grocery shopping so I had next to nothing in the cupboards. And there was no room for anyone. Their defence? They said they told someone else and told them to tell me! That someone else being a person who doesn't even have a telephone or the internet! And when I got a bit cross and said that, y'know, when you plan to use someone's home as a venue it's usually the done thing to consult them directly BEFORE you finalize your plans, they made out like I was super mega uptight and got offended saying they thought I wasn't pleased to see them after all this time! GAHHH!!!

Then there's K's best friend's parents, who invite her over their place for sleepovers and stuff, ask me when she needs to be home, I tell them when and why (because I have plans that she needs to be home for) and without fail, every single time, I'm still waiting for her to get home an hour after the time we agreed, then get a phone call begging please please please please can I stay here again another night because they've got a movie and blah blah blah, so I get made out to be the bad guy, the super strict dad because I say No, and have to keep saying no regardless of all their puppy eyed pleas and stuff because we've GOT PLANS ALREADY that I don't intend to flake out on!!

Gah yeah, stuff like this drives me FUCKING INSANE. I just figure if I have to deal with these people, I make it a day and time when I have no other plans, and I just give them as little control as possible over logistics and stuff.

I don't even see this as being particularly J - in fact it's because I'm very P, y'know, I want to have my calendar open, have free time to spontaneously go out and explore and do stuff, that's why I need to know when I need to be back for, what my restrictions are. If they say K will be brought home at 2, I want to know this means all the day after 2pm is free time that I can do as I please in - I want to know that if I decide at 1.45pm that I fancy going for a spin to the beach, then I only have to wait 15 minutes and we can go - not that I could end up wasting the entire afternoon hanging around waiting for them to show up.

I think though that my family having a pretty SP vibe about it is probably what makes me 'more organized than the average P', or maybe accelerated my Te somewhat, because I've had to learn to just be ruthless and stuff with them and not care if it means they think I'm anal or uptight or whatever. I've just had to get used to laying down the law with them and insisting and pestering and confirming and reminding and all this stuff, otherwise I just end up messed about the whole damn time, and consequently so does everyone else who relies on ME.

 

[INTJMom]

Dude, you don't have to be an FJ to get pissed off at this stuff. My family is full of super flakes and it absolutely maddens me every time I have to deal with them. They arrange things between them and then just expect other people involved to psychically know what they're up to. There are so many examples right off bat...

My neice E coming over from the USA for the first time in 6 years, phoning us and saying how excited she'll be to see me and my kids - especially my oldest K, who's particularly attached to her. So what does she do? Despite my many e-mails, calls and texts she doesn't answer her phone and keeps me totally in the dark about what she's planning (not even knowing where she's staying), and then all of a sudden one Sunday morning turns up on my doorstep (of my very small appartment) with 6 relatives - all of whom I hadn't seen since before I changed sex (so THAT was awkward!!!), and said they'd come round for lunch. K was at a sleepover with her friends. I said could they wait while I called to see if she could come home earlier so's not to miss them but they said they couldn't wait - they had appointments to keep!!!! - so there's me having to make an impromptu lunch for an extra 7 adults right the day before my next week's grocery shopping so I had next to nothing in the cupboards. And there was no room for anyone. Their defence? They said they told someone else and told them to tell me! That someone else being a person who doesn't even have a telephone or the internet! And when I got a bit cross and said that, y'know, when you plan to use someone's home as a venue it's usually the done thing to consult them directly BEFORE you finalize your plans, they made out like I was super mega uptight and got offended saying they thought I wasn't pleased to see them after all this time! GAHHH!!!
....

Wow! That is some story! Incredible that they would treat you that way!

 

[CzeCze]

Mang, I know some unreliable people. They say they'll be there in X -- it's a 1/3 chance they'll even make it out the door. And they'll make you insanely (like HOURS) late or totally mess up your own plans in the process.

Your story -- I would tell people beforehand what your expectations are. I know for me time can sometimes be very malleable and often my friends are on the same page as me. You say "8:00pm" and people come any time between 8:00 - 8:20 pm and it's not a big deal.

Then there are times when you say 8:00pm and you really mean 8:00 pm.

I've gotten in trouble with people about 'making plans' with them, when I didn't think I actually made definite plans with them.

I've also gotten super pissed at people for wasting my time.

Situations that could've been avoided!

I think it's important to double check you are indeed on the same page as someone. And if you haven't confirmed and your gut tells you that X person has a history of being late and will be late again, cancel or else proceed assuming they'll be late.

When both people are super punctual always on time it's not an issue.

But perhaps next time with these friends you can say, "So do you mean 10 minutes or do you mean *your* time 10 minutes? Because I really want to start on time/don't want to wait around/need to know exactly so I can schedule my evening." etc.

 

[Bella]

Oh man, late-ness, drives me to the brink of crazy.