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  1. #61
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    You know, I do understand the gist of 'anti-weakness' in ENFP and interesting that another ENXP like Sub picked up on the ENFP need for independence -- both in themselves and other people *to an extent*

    However, I totally didn't find the description in the OP weak and not having heard the tone of voice over the phone or knowing the guy myself, I can't think of how I'd get irritated. Unless I thought the were being lazy or just expecting me to do something for them -- being needy.

    I don't understand the concept of calling men 'weak' or being disgusted when they act like "wusses". I think it's endearing when a man shows a sensitive or vulnerable side. I interpret it as being comfortable enough with themselves and their masculinity to act naturally. Hiding behind masks and 'how men/women/etc.' are "supposed" to act is just lame, yo.

    And always having to and expecting others to fit into roles (when not at work) is just way too limiting of the human experience.

    I dunno, I also have antipathy to certain kinds of "weakness" but men acting "too girly" is definitely NOT one of them. I actually prefer men who can readily admit their feelings and being scared, hurt, etc. And you don't have to be a weepy, emo guy to do that. You can be multidimensional.

    Anywhoo, maybe this non-issue for me is related to the fact that I have not and do not really date bio-males.
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  2. #62
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Default Okay, another experience for parallel?

    Alrigh, I *DO* remember once I was really aggravated when two guests showed up 1 hour later than expected at our rented NYC loft for the weekend. I was maybe 9pm. And one woman was terrified to even step a foot into the street alone. She kept asking and asking for someone to "walk with her" up the street even after we explained to her she literally just had to retrace her steps and walk back 4 blocks that she came from. So I stood in the doorway and showed her the exact 4 block path to follow (that she'd already walked) and some guy turned the corner, when she saw him, she got scared and stepped quickly back into the house .

    The neighborhood honestl IMO was NOT scary or sketchy. It was a Polish/Latin enclave in Brooklyn, no people loafing about, no drunken kids, nothing like that. Pretty quiet but businesses were open with some white hipsters or older folk, people were walking places. To me, I honestly felt SO MUCH safer there than I did in my 'hood of 4 years in DC.

    Anywhoo, because of her repeated requests and refusal to leave the house by herself, I finally I had to interrupt what I was doing (eating and getting prepared to go out to a club we were all headed to) to walk her there and back. This woman is older than me and lives in a big city herself. And she's otherwise pretty confident and capable -- she's an IXTJ corporate lawyer.

    I was really surprised and annoyed. I didn't think it was 'weak', but I definitely thought she was overly skittish and it really annoyed me that she went out of her way to inconvenience someone else and make them go out of their way. Especially because she was late (it was partly my fault I later realized) and the reason she had to leave the house was her own fault. That's one of the things I immediately thought about her whn I first met her months earlier -- that she doesn't seem to notice the needs of individuals in the group -- very low Ne and Fe?

    Sooo -- if it doesn't inconvenience me and no one is asking me to do something for them that I think they are capable of doing easily themselves I don't mind shows of 'weakness'. And even if the show weakness, I don't think that makes someone a "weak person" per sae. The instance can annoy me. It's not about weakness though, it's about making demands on me that I think they shouldn't.

    [And in retrospect, and even at the time, I *do* understand why she felt the way she did, even though I thought it was WAAAAY over-reacting]
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  3. #63
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I understand what you're saying CzeCze, and it sounds wonderful.. but there are men whom are genuinely dependent, Know they are have no intentions of changing that, and latch onto the independence of their dates and milk them for all their worth. I've had it happen to me, and (Not saying it's right to judge everyone based on one experience.) after that you get very defensive about it and start picking up certain indicators on future men...

    The directions aren't a big deal. Just as a man showing emotion, or being sensitive isn't bad either. It's just, to me, it seems the tone of voice he used and the way she was describing it (knowing the guy previously), a red flag went off in her head. No one wants to be stuck in that situation where they're being used.

    Relationships are not the only thing. Friendships are also affected. If I see a friend cannot make decisions on their own and are entirely reliant on others.. I'm more than likely NOT going to call you when I need support and help, thus not needing you in important times or feel I can trust you enough to confide in you... making you more of an acquaintance at worst than a friend.

    It doesn't mean I'd stop talking to that person, or shun them.. but the red flags just point that stuff out to me. I don't think its so much a gender thing, because I DON'T have many female friends because of the overwhelming number of flimsy dependent indecisive women I've known, but when it comes to looking for a good friend (and you Cannot date me until we've been friends first.) I need to know you have the capabilities of standing on your own. People are always allowed to fall, and fall short.. but to blow away at the first gust of wind makes for not a very sound person to entrust yourself in.
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  4. #64
    Member BlownAway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reisende View Post
    OK, so I have read much of what was said. I have had some people call me weak, for not being able to find my own way through things. But here is my problem: I have two BS's (engineering and ecology) but still I can't find a job, let alone a career; I have done and continue to do social things and I still can't seem to make friends who want to do things with me; and despite being on a few other social websites I can't land a single date (I barely get anything). I really am a great guy by all accounts. But do to the total lack of successes I often feel like a failure and its that feeling that annoys people. Now, to me, I am not weak; for from it. I do all I can, but I still cant get anywhere in my life. That would be frustrating and also disillusioning for anyone.
    Do I qualify as weak to anyone? Or normal?
    You're not weak, you're just a normal ENFP! A bit of randomness, not being able to choose ONE careerpath, "scaring" people maybe by being too "profound" (at least that's a problem I have..both with making friends and dating)?

    Lack of success, seen from an NF point-of-view or from the dominating SJ-view? In the SJ-world (sorry SJ:s but this is the main reason why you SUCK!) you have to live up to their terms of success, otherwise you're considered weak . Anyway, this seem like normal ENFP-problems in the SJ-world and I hope you wont let that get to you . I'm struggling with the same things, being a female ENFP.

  5. #65
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    Thanks, I hear what you're saying and see much of that in me. I still would want to be more of use...I feel useless for most of my life. I have so much I could do and I am fully willing, but if I am not giving the opportunities my options are all too limited. I am thinking about the Peace Corps, just to do something. Being an ENFP male is also tough, but I do have a very strong T component. Not that that is helping...

  6. #66
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    I don't associate weakness with sensitivty. Weakness makes me think of a person having no morals, selling out their friend etc, whereas sensitivity I see as having emotional depth and being perceptive, which is something I really value in people. People often seem to label those who get easily offended as being sensitive...nah, they just have big egos, lol. Genuinely sensitive people rock! lol

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edasich View Post
    I don't associate weakness with sensitivty. Weakness makes me think of a person having no morals, selling out their friend etc, whereas sensitivity I see as having emotional depth and being perceptive, which is something I really value in people. People often seem to label those who get easily offended as being sensitive...nah, they just have big egos, lol. Genuinely sensitive people rock! lol

  8. #68
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reisende View Post
    OK, so I have read much of what was said. I have had some people call me weak, for not being able to find my own way through things. But here is my problem: I have two BS's (engineering and ecology) but still I can't find a job, let alone a career; I have done and continue to do social things and I still can't seem to make friends who want to do things with me; and despite being on a few other social websites I can't land a single date (I barely get anything). I really am a great guy by all accounts. But do to the total lack of successes I often feel like a failure and its that feeling that annoys people. Now, to me, I am not weak; for from it. I do all I can, but I still cant get anywhere in my life. That would be frustrating and also disillusioning for anyone.
    Do I qualify as weak to anyone? Or normal?
    Hey! Welcome to the forum.

    ENFPs are really great. Just hang in there!
    Maybe your online persona doesn't come across with all the charm that you have in person.
    You're funny, right? And enthusiastic about stuff?
    Probably somewhat of a gentleman?
    You need to use real-life venues for that to come across.
    That's my opinion anyway. I could be wrong.

  9. #69
    Member BlownAway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reisende View Post
    Thanks, I hear what you're saying and see much of that in me. I still would want to be more of use...I feel useless for most of my life. I have so much I could do and I am fully willing, but if I am not giving the opportunities my options are all too limited. I am thinking about the Peace Corps, just to do something. Being an ENFP male is also tough, but I do have a very strong T component. Not that that is helping...
    To admit to yourself and others that you want to make changes in your life and that you're not fully happy, is the biggest strength of all. Something you can be proud of .

    Also, ENFP:s do have so much potential in so many areas, which makes it hard to choose one thing. Have you tried coaching/selfcoaching or something like that? It might help you find what is right for you to do.

  10. #70
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    My bad...posted in the wrong thread! :p

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