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  1. #31
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Literally, I would say it's clearly evident that life has meaning, when you look at the definition of "meaning" and "significance":

    Meaning - 1. what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import:

    Significance - 1. important; of consequence.

    Life is obviously important, it is the direct reason for every consequence we experience.
    Less literally, life is worth living because we all have a lifetime to experience pleasure and happiness, no one denies that happiness is an unworthy goal. If someone has no hope of future happiness, and is right (certain medical conditions, daily suffering.. not "my girlfriend broke up with me") than life might not have "meaning" for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    But on the "no meaning" conclusion being a logical one. "The universe has no purpose" is very extreme assumption to make. I'd have to hear the logical explanation as to why the universe is most likely meaningless.
    I didn't find anything really satisfying about the first quote. We're talking about ultimate, or deep importance. (At least, I am, and I think dissonance is too.) People can attribute importance to certain events, but that importance is subjective, not objective, and not inherent in the universe.

    The second quote still doesn't really hit the nail on the head, although it seems closer. I think it just begs the question: what is the purpose of my happiness? Does it really matter?

    The third quote forces me to define what meaning is. I think of it as just "mattering." Does anything really matter? Do my actions ultimately matter? Does my happiness matter, or my existence? I think that if you take an honest look at the universe, it looks like (a) we are a very very small portion of it, something that almost looks like an "accident" and (b) events in the universe are dictated by its physical laws. It's a giant machine that's automatically running but doesn't seem to have anywhere specific it's trying to get to because no one is guiding it there. (Sorry fundies, you lose.) If there is no final goal, then no single event can objectively matter. It's the difference between playing a tennis match and just volleying. Volleying has no winner or loser, so each hit or miss doesn't matter. It can matter to you personally, subjectively, if you invent your own goal (e.g., hit 5 in a row) but ultimately, objectively, it's meaningless.

  2. #32
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    That's kind of my point. We created the term "meaning" and the concept to go with it. It doesn't have to be something that truly exists, it's just a word. Just like 'consciousness'. Or 'one'. Or 'God'.

    Your argument is like Bella's.



    No one can objectively say anything, because we don't have access to objective information.
    We create these concepts, languages, theories.. we give them meaning. Your life is effected everyday because of these non-physical ideas.

    Language is objective, the definitions to words are documented and objective.

    How can you logically say we can't know the meaning/definition of words? We created words and gave them meaning/definitions.

  3. #33
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    I'm going to split the God stuff out of here because it's off-topic and seems like it's going to turn into a God vs. skepticism debate. Link here.

    Bella, please remember that while you're entitled to voice your opinions and beliefs, people here don't like to be preached to. This isn't the right thread for that, nor the right site. If you'd like to start a thread about God, go for it. Just be mindful of the religious moralizing.

  4. #34
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    We create these concepts, languages, theories.. we give them meaning. Your life is effected everyday because of these non-physical ideas.

    Language is objective, the definitions to words are documented and objective.

    How can you logically say we can't know the meaning/definition of words? We created words and gave them meaning/definitions.
    We can use our words correctly or incorrectly, but we can't think of them as getting at anything objective. Everything is subjective. Perception is subjective.

    Atoms are governed by physical laws, no?

    We are made up of atoms, no?

    Therefore we are governed by physical laws.

    Free will is an illusion.

  5. #35
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I didn't find anything really satisfying about the first quote. We're talking about ultimate, or deep importance. (At least, I am, and I think dissonance is too.) People can attribute importance to certain events, but that importance is subjective, not objective, and not inherent in the universe.

    The second quote still doesn't really hit the nail on the head, although it seems closer. I think it just begs the question: what is the purpose of my happiness? Does it really matter?

    The third quote forces me to define what meaning is. I think of it as just "mattering." Does anything really matter? Do my actions ultimately matter? Does my happiness matter, or my existence? I think that if you take an honest look at the universe, it looks like (a) we are a very very small portion of it, something that almost looks like an "accident" and (b) events in the universe are dictated by its physical laws. It's a giant machine that's automatically running but doesn't seem to have anywhere specific it's trying to get to because no one is guiding it there. (Sorry fundies, you lose.) If there is no final goal, then no single event can objectively matter. It's the difference between playing a tennis match and just volleying. Volleying has no winner or loser, so each hit or miss doesn't matter. It can matter to you personally, subjectively, if you invent your own goal (e.g., hit 5 in a row) but ultimately, objectively, it's meaningless.
    When you say, "does anything matter?" what would you need to know to feel that life matters? A God that visits earth and convinces you of an afterlife? Do you have to know that you will have an afterlife for life to matter for you?

    What matters is subjective. What is of meaning, value, significance, to someone is a decision they make.

    Therefore, you can't objectively say "Nothing matters".. to you it might not, that's your reality, not others.

  6. #36
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    We can use our words correctly or incorrectly, but we can't think of them as getting at anything objective. Everything is subjective. Perception is subjective.

    Atoms are governed by physical laws, no?

    We are made up of atoms, no?

    Therefore we are governed by physical laws.

    Free will is an illusion.
    We can use words correctly/incorrectly only if we go outside dictionary definitions.

    I think what you mean is; what matters to individuals differs and is subjective. The meaning of the word "matters" is the same, but what specifically matters and has meaning to people varies.

    I agree though that free will is an illusion. Determinism makes the most sense.

  7. #37
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Oh so we're not disagreeing at all.

    There is no meaning of life. But there is subjective meaning.

  8. #38
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    When you say, "does anything matter?" what would you need to know to feel that life matters? A God that visits earth and convinces you of an afterlife? Do you have to know that you will have an afterlife for life to matter for you?
    I somewhat believe in reincarnation already, but it doesn't have impact on the issue of ultimate purpose and ultimate goals.

    What matters is subjective. What is of meaning, value, significance, to someone is a decision they make.
    I don't disagree, but I don't find this satisfying either. To go through life setting up little personal goals seems self-deceptive to me.

    Therefore, you can't objectively say "Nothing matters".. to you it might not, that's your reality, not others.
    I think you're contradicting yourself. If it's my reality and not others', then it's subjective by definition, no?


    As fun as this is, I really have to go to sleep, Mr. blaise. Gentlemen, goodnight.

  9. #39
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Oh so we're not disagreeing at all.

    There is no meaning of life. But there is subjective meaning.
    eh, I'm saying that we can only answer the question of meaning on a subjective level.

    I mean, no one on this earth can really claim to "know" anything. Unless you're the 2nd coming of Christ.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    eh, I'm saying that we can only answer the question of meaning on a subjective level.

    I mean, no one on this earth can really claim to "know" anything. Unless you're the 2nd coming of Christ.
    I remember you making claims of divinity before. heehee
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

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