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  1. #1
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Default NFJs and judginess/secrecy

    There is an issue that I have been pondering with myself for some time that I think I have recently gotten some insight into, but I would like to gather some more information and see if it holds true.

    So I have several questions:

    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense?

    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic?

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them?

  2. #2
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    My judginess of others is directly correlated to how much I like/respect them. The less I regard them, the more I will judge. Granted, I judge the crap out of everything and every one, but if I hold someone in high regard, or they are a well meaning stranger, I will usually pass the judgement and not let it plant itself. The result I have noticed, is those close to me regard me as non-judgemental, and very good at acting as an impartial judge/observer. Those that don't hold me in high regard will see me as incredibly judgemental. It's fair for both because if people don't like it, it's usually mutual to some extent and they will be judged more. Nearly all my friends freely tell me things that might not be kosher or be something I would objectively judge, as they know that since it's them, I won't judge it and hold it against them. If anything, people often tell me that they find it odd that they tell me secretive things with a higher frequency than they'd expect. I can't comment on those who I don't share good terms with, as secrets will be withheld and there is no way to know to what extent.

    As for fellow NFJ friends that I have, I don't really have any issues. If I meet someone who shows that they are going to judge me on matters that I don't think are warranted, then I won't associate with them. That flushes out any potential judgy NFJ's. If they begin to do so, I'll usually call them out in some sort, if just assert myself. I am very solid/confidant with my identity, and if someone doesn't like it... too bad? As a correlary, I don't feel the need to withhold secrets from my NFJ friends either out of fear of judgement. The way I think it, is "if they judgement for this, that's not my problem and I don't give a shit?". Because I have a rather devil-may-care attitude over people judging me as a person, I might not be the best person to use for info on it.
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  3. #3

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    Are we that much high maintenance?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    There is an issue that I have been pondering with myself for some time that I think I have recently gotten some insight into, but I would like to gather some more information and see if it holds true.

    So I have several questions:

    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense?

    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic?

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them?
    I'm almost afraid to say something considering I haven't made the best apperance here, but I'll give it a shot...

    1. I believe my INFJ friend quietly judging myself (as well as others in her life).

    I have never asked the other people that know her as we do not live anywhere near each other, but from what she has told me over our long friendship, I don't think her immediate family is that appreciating of her. With that said, I think they might most likely feel the way that I do when it comes to her quietly judging me. I think she quietly judges everyone in her life whether it be family, friends, or co-workers. Sometimes though, I don't think to an incredible amount -- certainly we all judge to some extent, but I felt at times that she couldn't let something go about those closest to her or those that reoccur in her life (ie: co-workers) because she was just too set on judging them or she didn't know how to stop.

    2. Yes or no, but that isn't something I do specifically with just the INFJ friend. At the same time, there was a lot that I started to realize about my friend (unhappiness/moodiness/insecurities) so I did my best at times to fall back on things and not tell her. In return though I tried to speak about myself or something going on with me because I didn't want to pry into her current mood. I just felt like she needed her privacy so I didn't know how to ask her to share why she felt a certain way nor did I think she actually would.

    I know my INFJ friend has insecurities about comparing herself to other women quite frequently, so I was very aware never to bring up someone she would typically say was pretty or "better than her". I'm not the type of person to really bring up things like that in the first place, but sometimes articles I thought she'd be interested in reading as well had pictures of "flawless" women and I just didn't want to upset her -- so I wouldn't bring it up.

    I think that is simply because I don't want to upset anybody -- period. That's never my angle, but I do like to have discussions about things with friends. I couldn't completely do that unedited with my INFJ friend though. For some reason, ironically, I found that with her I felt like I would offend her and with other friends they would sometimes offend me and I'd never offend them (not that I know of anyway -- they've never said anything to date).

    ... I don't know if I found a way out of that dynamic. It's hard for me to just forget entirely every single time I intereact with a person I know that somethings just bother them so I always do my best to avoid it. At times it doesn't even mentally phase me to remind myself either.

    After awhile with my INFJ friend stuck on the same insecurities I just forgot about it -- it was like I naturally most of the time just knew what to say and what not to say. I wouldn't even come to mind.

    3. I honestly do not know, but from what she's told me about people telling her she's wrong or people paying her opinions no mind, I think she did express much vulnerability because at time it felt like she wanted a validation for things in her life and the support wasn't there for her from the people she wanted it from.

    I honestly don't think she takes that many emotional chances. I'm not speaking with me because I don't honestly know what her processing of friendship is (she never could tell me what friendship was to her so I'm still clueless), but I'm just thinking in terms of her emotional investment of her creative work... she has pieces here and there, all over the place, but she won't take a chance with them. I think once or twice she tried with an immediate family member or attempted two but felt she was knocked down because another relative beat her to the punchline with the same kind of creative form, just a different theme entirely -- and the relative was praised and my INFJ friend just fell back and didn't show anyone afterall.

    I think at the end of it all where our friendship lies now, my INFJ friend did take emotional chances with me. I think she was looking for someone to validate her or even just believe her when she said something. I wasn't on the "inside" of her life so maybe she felt like taking the emotional chance of telling me -- but I couldn't see it. I think I did a decent job, but I was more in the realm of what I would do to show a friend I was paying attention rather than really seeing what was behind her actions/reactions.

    Silent treatment? My INFJ friend told me that when she has nothing to say she doesn't have anything to say because she's protecting herself.

    Nah. My friend was always reserved to some extent. She always kept me at a distance in a lot of ways. I think she came more out of her shell to try to accomdate what I was used to doing with my other friends, but I had I known that it was bothering her (still not positive about that) I wouldn't have pressed her. I can remember times where I wanted to take our creative work out in the public to get people involved on reading our stuff and leaving us reviews and she was very, very, very... not okay with that. After a few attempts and one or two miffed reactions from me, I let it go. I did because I sensed her quietness and the way she was typing to me (certain words she was using) that she was just not at all okay with that. I didn't want to offend (or offend any further) so I stopped asking or alluding to it.

    It didn't make me feel less close to her as a really good friend though, but it did make me wonder how such a creative person could be so reserved that even non-professional work was to be protected as much as she wanted.

    Had I known what being critical to an INFJ could do, I'd have understood that she didn't want people to see our work because she didn't want to see any, if any, bad or critical reviews.

    I'm sorry if I didn't answer these questions correctly -- it's a little confusing for me to understand.

  5. #5
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    There is an issue that I have been pondering with myself for some time that I think I have recently gotten some insight into, but I would like to gather some more information and see if it holds true.

    So I have several questions:

    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense?

    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic?

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them?
    1) yes, he constantly judges everyone and everything. It's almost never important what someone did, it's more important why someone did it. I dont feel offend or moved by it at all, it's his own decision. But it's very problematic for others. He has his own worldview with a limited perception and a narrow habit to engage new world views or to feel how it is for others and that makes him quite inflexible. Most people like him, so nobody says a word when he again appears to be like an old adult or partypooper. Most people tho think or say that he is quite rigid.
    There for example is someone, who wants to loose weight in the circle of friends. But that guy lacks the will and is always hoovering between one radical diet and a shit-on-it-all attitude. For the INFJ that is not understandable, his opinion is that you need to set your mind on a goal and stay with that, you cant just constantly hoover in-between decisions that are opposing. I am fine with the INFJ on that but he is very emotional about it, to the point when he openly in a group makes fun of the fat guy for having such a bad will.
    And this leads to another phaenomena I see, the INFJ is actually quite sensible, but he never shys from opnely insulting other people. This makes for a quite contrary personality, cause if you can punch heavily, you need to be able to take a heavy punch as well.
    His attempts to behave easy in society dont work so well as well. He is overdoing everything to make it perfect to the last detail (perfect in his mind) and that comes off as quite wannabe. Unnatural behaviour. If others criticize him for that, he becomes very angry and likes to portray you as antisocial.

    He judges you quickly and without second-thought in every manner, but within his limited domain of capabilities and perception.

    2) I have a lot of thngs that may alienate peple. Thats just because I have been in a many different worlds and most people are only in their own. Secrecy with the INFJ I dont have more than with anyone else. I am actually quite open about my things, once you get me talking, I spill out things like I perceived them and they happened to me, I dont care so much how others might think about them. I am your anti-philistine in that way and I dont care about my reputation.
    But I have seen it that people the INFJ openly judges, try to change in his favor and start to lie about their things, cause the INFJs narrow moral judgement tickles them.

    3) He not at all. He is more your typical male razorblade with no empathy or emotional wisdom whatsoever. But his jokes are great. He is always very pissed off, if you would criticize his ability to do Fe things. He tends to be over perfectional with that, which turns all social gatherings (which should be fun) more into things like hoefully-everything-plays-out-well-and-the-INFJ-is-happy. I have not so many problems with constantly telling him that he is overdoing it and I think he values my criticism (so he never said so). But I like getting him pissed, it's just too easy .
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #6
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense? Hmmm...somewhat. Mostly that I handle things differently than he does. That's fine but I don't care. I don't think others (maybe our kids to a degree) see that as much as I do. If he is judging others, I don't think anyone else has an inkling.


    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic? We don't play that game either way. If it's a need to know thing, I'll tell him. I may cushion the blow some but I would never omit things or lie to him. We went through this with one thing a long time ago and it was rather important. I told him - do anything like this again and I'm gone. In my experience NFJ, tend to feel like omitting things is not the same as lying. They attribute it to caring so much about the persons' feelings but in reality, it's often because they don't want conflict. Still lying.

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them? The reserve doesn't affect how close I feel. My ENFJ is somewhat expressive - he likes to talk things out or vent and he can because none of this bothers me. He shows vulnerability and takes emotional chances with me, more in the beginning of our relationship than now. I know he feels safe with me because he has told me.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  7. #7
    empress Nørrsken's Avatar
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    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense?
    I think I do come across as quietly judgmental against other people, since they do clam up around me unless I try to let my Fe lead my life rather than my Ni. So far, it's been working.

    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic?
    My husband has kept some feelings to himself before when we were dating, since I have been very open about what I think and feel about everything in general, and I do have a tendency to overreact when someone does or say something that clashes with my preferences and future plans. He is now more open about his own desires, but it took some years to get there.

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them?
    I don't take chances, and if I do, it's because I feel comfortable or am able to somehow, without words, trust a person's vibe that he or she is trustworthy for me to spend time with. I am still apprehensive about sharing certain parts of me with my husband because he can be a bit harsh sometimes with my emotions, so I learned to shut my mouth. Then again, I've learned to do just that since I was a child, so its nothing new.
    I'll follow her into the depths
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    Don't leave me there.

  8. #8
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I have one INFJ friend who the OP is completely applicable to. And fwiw, I'm not the only one who has felt this way about her in the past; prior to much knowledge of mbti, and other friends of hers who know nothing of mbti have used the 'silently judging' descriptor for her.

    Also, fwiw, I have known a few other INFJ's in my day and I don't get the same impression of them. This one I am speaking of happens to be an e1 -- I suspect there's more of a tie to enneagram 1 than INFJ -- or it's the combo that makes the impression.

    The first few years I knew this person, this aspect of her really bothered me, as it's true, I felt that anything I said was going to be 'silently judged'. I could tell when she 'approved' of something or when she went into 'I don't really approve/agree but I'll not say anything'. For me, initially, I then would hesitate to tell her certain things; I certainly didn't feel totally comfortable around her. Over the years I just realized on my end that I didn't really think we'd ever be super close / I'd ever consider her a super good friend. I also became more 'ok' with her potentially silently judging. I just let her do her thing, and....whatever. I don't feel I get the 'silently judging' from her very much anymore, but I'm unsure whether it's because I don't care anymore if it happens, or whether she's actually not doing that anymore and is 'ok' with me now. ha. On her end, I think she's worked a lot over the years on trying to be less rigid and such. Anyway, I still consider her a friend, it's just a different sort of friendship / I'm never going to feel fully comfortable around her. It is what it is.

    Before I knew her, she had fallout with two people -- because of this aspect of her and others, they ceased interacting with her. This hit her really hard, and I think is in part the reason she started to try to work on things on her end.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #9
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    We have a receptionist at my work who is very expressive of Fe. She has a warm smile and greets everyone equally. She has sometimes shared with me when things get exhausting at work when people get upset about schedules and payments. I think that really wears her down, but she doesn't show it. I try to be supportive of her, knowing how hard it is to work with people. i think she does set a positive emotional environment for interacting with customers that lessens the amount of grouchiness. I heard her talking with the other office manager (an E?TJ) who was talking about how she gets up at 4:00am to exercise every day. The Fe lady asked her why, and she said she enjoys it. Then the Fe lady said, "I know why. It's because you need to be perfect". The ETJ lady pushed back a little insisting she just enjoys it. That could be an example of a little judging, but she is probably correct. It doesn't feel like a negative judgement, because it isn't horrible for a person to try to be perfect.
    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense?
    I think people like this receptionist analyze and make sense of the people they encounter in order to more effectively interact with them. I suspect there is a pragmatic aspect to needing to 'judge' people if you have a desire to be effective in your interactions with them. That doesn't necessarily mean negative judgment. There is a neutral way people can judge others by simply trying to make sense of them. I think it is when a person has excess anger inside that they are having issues processing that every judgment of specific people turns out harsh and negative. This lady I know is not angry.

    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic?
    I don't think I do this more with NFJs than others. I don't expect people in general to understand certain aspects of myself. In professional contexts I avoid letting people know about the intensity of my feeling or the harshness of my experiences. I think it would confuse and disturb people, so I tend to keep things lighter when the environment is impersonal, just as anybody would.

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them?
    It's possible that NFJs may express less vulnerability on average. My impression of social scenarios is that it is typically a very bad idea to express vulnerability unless there is a specific, appropriate context for it. I would expect people who are especially good at Fe to be even more aware of the taboo of vulnerability socially and to be better at timing the appropriate instances and degrees of sharing. People in church share prayer requests that express vulnerability, and so that would be an appropriate context. Even there, a person would get a feel for the range and types of requests that are expected, and may hold off including something that would be out of place. A relative with cancer, needing rain for the farm, general health and well being requests would be the standard there. Perhaps the occasional mention of having spiritual doubts and praying for faith.

    To whatever extent I am an INFJ the following may be applicable. I don't share much information with people, but I have unfortunately had more than one person tell me that I come across as 'vulnerable', so I'm not able to create an outer shell as is required by the norm. I hide a lot of things I create that are really telling the truth because I don't think people will understand. I think my current employer would fire me if she heard my most personal songs. I've been working on a pseudonym to promote them because I know they will help people who have experience abuse and intense psychological pain.

    I constantly analyze people, but I'm always hoping for a positive conclusion. I tend to see a lot of harmful behaviors that people do commit, but try to make sense of why. I can usually come up with at least one hypothesis as to what drives their harmful behavior. In a way I do put more effort into 'judging' or 'analyzing' other people than the average person likely does, but it is a neutral process at its core. For some reason I remember many details going back for years about what people have said and done, so I usually have a lot of information to use to analyze people. I avoid a lot of people that I find harmful, or just don't have the energy to deal with. I'll recognize people hurt me without understanding what they are doing. I've had people trigger old wounds and cause levels of pain that go way beyond anything they know they are doing. That's even true of romantic relationships. I will avoid such people, but I also don't hold them responsible for the entirety of the pain they caused. I only hold them responsible for the part I would expect them to understand, and then I can usually guess at something in their life that made the behavior appear justifiable to them. I view people like a river flowing by. I never conclude absolutely because an individual in one moment is possibly infinitely complex, but then they exist in more than just a moment. Each person is a dynamic system that is continually being shaped by environment and choice.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    There is an issue that I have been pondering with myself for some time that I think I have recently gotten some insight into, but I would like to gather some more information and see if it holds true.

    So I have several questions:

    1) If you have an NFJ in your life, does it feel to you that they are overtly or quietly judging you? How do you react to this? Do others feel similarly about the NFJ in this sense?

    2) If you have an NFJ in life whose regard matters a lot to you, is there a temptation to keep secret anything that you feel doesn't align with your NFJs values, preferences, what they think is right or to avoid sharing what you suspect would hurt or upset them? Why do you think that is? Have you found a way out of that dynamic?

    3) Do you find that the NFJs in your life express much vulnerability or take any emotional chances with you? If so, in what way? If not, how do you think they remain safe? Does their reserve (if they show reserve) affect how close you feel to them?
    1) Well, with my ENFJ 3w2 friend, we constantly call each other out on stuff... We openly express judgement towards each other, sometimes blow up, and then make up. Other people have seen this so often that they just stay out of this strange dynamic of ours. However, I feel a whole lot of pressure from him if I don't live up to his idealized vision of me. And probably vice versa.

    I heard a conversation between him and someone else.
    Him: *blah blah blah* I should be a counselor because I listen to people all day long.
    Person 2: uhhh... A lot of what you say is well-meaning but self-serving. Counselors are supposed to be objective.

    2. We both reveal a lot but hold back. If I suggest that I might want to do something that would steer me away from his vision of me or take me down a path away from, he tries to pull me back in. He's like that with anyone who he's emotionally attached to. So I hold back my ambivalence or doubts.

    3.Yes. I am not sure.

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