User Tag List

First 789

Results 81 to 87 of 87

  1. #81
    Junior Member a24kar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    "The extravert would say : "Reality does not exist for him, he gives himself up to fruitless fantasies." The perception of the images of the unconscious, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But since these images represent possible views of the world which may give life a new potential, this function, which to the outside world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel." Psychological Types, P.400

    The INFJ has the propensity to be divorced from reality because their perceiving function is introverted. Introversion naturally defines the external environment in terms of how it relates to the self and not how it is in its own right. Thus the external environment is distorted by the internal unconscious predispositions of the INFJ.

    "Even with only a slight increase in the power of the unconscious, the subjective component of sensation becomes so alive that it almost completely obscures the influence of the object. If the object is a person, he feels completely devalued, while the subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perceptions....Actually he lives in a mythological world, where men, animals, locomotives, houses, rivers, and mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons. That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the effect they have on his judgments and actions. He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality." Psychological Types, Introverted Sensing.

    Very similar statements could be made about Introverted Sensing. However, Introverted Sensing is much more grounded in reality because of its affinity with the concrete world. The distorted perceptions of Introverted Intuition can stretch as far as the imagination of this type would allow, which we know is very far as Introverted Intuition is in closest affinity with imagination of all types. Because it is not restricted by the Judgment of Thinking, not nearly as much as the INTJ type, the INFJ is almost indubitably the most Intuitive type. In this context, however, it is not at all a good thing. As many of the worldviews produced are manifestly a form of madness. Besides this, what are the other reasons why such an 'insane' worldview may emerge? We know that we naturally have a negative attitude towards the functions and attitudes we are not in close affinity with. In the case of the INFJ, it is the Extroverted Sensing. Thus the attitude is most negative towards extroverted sensing.

    The INFJ shares the attitude of the classical Keirseyan SJ who is profoundly pessimistic about the external world and is very security conscious. Yet in the case of the INFJ such attitude is far more ingenious! In effect they have a very abstract model of 'the whole world is trying to screw me!'.

    Another reason for this is Introverted Thinking is also aimed at the subject. Thus there is also an aversion to problems of the external world. Unlike a strong, objective introverted thinking type, the Thinking of the INFJ is underdeveloped. Thus in addition to the persecution mania induced by the abstract vision of Ni a similar vision emerges as a result of malfunctioning Thinking. Thinking is not only negative towards the external world because of introversion, or for the same reason as Intuition, but also because this function in itself is under-developed. Thus it inevitably conjures negative thoughts about the world of impersonal occurences. One is only to imagine how much those could be magnified by the vision of Introverted Intuition.

    I suppose one shall request examples of such INFJ insanity.

    1)Arthur Schopenhauer-All Willing is evil because it is selfish. It is selfish to will to live. Selfishness by definition causes suffering. Because everything wills, everything is evil. Thus the whole world is out to screw me! The whole world is out to screw me. There is 1000 page treatise (2 volumes) of World as Will and Representation written to support such a view. In addition to this, a very large collection of essays which span well over a 1000 pages as well.



    2)Fyodor Dostoevsky-Believed that the Russian soil is sacred and just like Israel, it is God's chosen nation. God has purposefully put it through suffering as part of his plan to redeem it greatly in the end. One of his characters, Kirilov from the Possessed believed that Jesus Christ shall return in Russia, which is hardly an exaggeration of Dostoevksy's views.


    INFJs also tend to be foolhardy about such convictions because Introverted Intuition is fundamental to their inner life. Thus their sense of self is often defined by their hunches, this gives them every reasoning to cling to them. Unlike a Thinking type, the INFJ is often unable to rationally analyze their hunches, thus this gives them another reason to cling to them as if their whole sense of self-worth is contingent upon them. Thinking, of course is sub-servient to Intuition and often only considers rationales that feel to be in favor of the vision and discard those that are not.

    Extroverted Feeling evokes a feeling of appreciation for ideas that support the vision and a feeling of depreciation for those that do not. Such prejudice has been a powerful weapon to keep the INFJ frozen in their irrational vision.

    Important note: The above problems could be rectified through cultivation of the facultes of Extroversion, Sensation and Thinking. Thus this is not 'fate' for the INFJ!
    Firstly, I am fond of your post over all. However...

    I feel that parts of your "statements" about INFJ's are poorly supported in a logically fair conception of reality as it is here.

    1) Your "I suppose one shall request examples of such INFJ insanity." quotes are to say politely not valid. Here is why:
    1) Your quote of Arthur Schopenhauer's writings pulls simply a few lines from a very large work to your audience's attention and try's to exemplify that because this seems "crazy" or detached from reality perhaps,... that not only his entire book but in fact that all INFJs are the same as you try to portray him to be.

    2) You're saying that because this other gentleman Fyodor Dostoevsky believed that Russian soil was sacred that this means that he is crazy? Or that because even maybe he thought Jesus would return to this place instead of this place he is nuts? Using this same logic, any person who thinks that Jesus will return someplace different than you should be deemed insane. (Is that what you are trying to say because if that's what you're trying to say that's fine... I don't really care what you believe religiously, no offense, but it would help me to put to rest my concern.)

    Thank You

  2. #82
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    972 so/sp
    Socionics
    EII Ni
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    No, fundamentalist religion is the only true kind of religion. Everything else is a distortion.




    Religious people who do critical thinking are being irreligious.





    You're confusing appearance for essence. It leads to inner conflict for reasons described above, but only says that it is all about overcoming the inner conflict.











    Or they only feel so to you, more anecdotes please.




    We don't find this in his religious and what he called 'philosophical' works. That just is not relevant because his biography holds no place in a philosophical or theological discussion.
    Good God, and you accuse others of being divorced from reality? I'm an Atheist, but I don't like bigoted "all religious people are stupid and irrational" talk.
    Autistic INFP


  3. #83
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    972 so/sp
    Socionics
    EII Ni
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It does not matter how people see it, it only matters what is true.
    but we cannot know what is true with absolute certainty, we can only know approximations of truth because each individual has their own biases and prejudices. So it very much does matter how people see it.

    If you are not analyzing logically, you do not have a reliable way of knowing what is rational. You may however embrace a rational choice by chance, yet given the myriad of possibilities of choices you may make, your chances are very slim.
    But, to roughly quote Karl Popper, choosing to value reason and logic is itself irrational.

    Unless this thinker provides a sound argument for his theism (which noone has done so far), he is mythologizing. To mythologize means to utter false claims. Theism is false. Therefore whoever believes in theism mythologizes.
    Mythologizing is part of human nature, religious or not. To invoke Popper again, Science began with myths and the criticism of conflicting myths. Popular science writing on cosmology and the history of the earth and of life trigger the same emotional reactions as myth.

    Theism has nothing to do with mythology. Theism has to do with a psychological tendency to treat inanimate objects as sentient agents.

    It is not a dogma because a dogma by definition means retention of an idea without applying logical analysis to reconsider the position. To be dogmatic and to refuse to reconsider your position are synonymous expressions. If you establish an argument based on rationale, you are free to reconsider it. You can logically analyze the proposition of whether or not all things can be explained logically. Which I do indeed. Therefore, it is not a dogma.
    Dogmaticism has nothing to do with logical analysis per se and everything to do with a refusal to be critical of one's assumptions.

    People, both theists and atheists, conventionally religious and conventionally irreligious have their lives changed for the better because of the benign spiritual experiences. Such experiences do not require religious superstition for legitimation.
    Very true.


    Whatever cannot be reached through logic is non-sense. Can you imagine a mathematical equation where we arrive at the correct answer, yet the explanation for how why we arrived there is mysteriously impossible to discover?
    I must disagree. Your logical positivism both misses the mark and excludes allegorical and metaphorical truths. Then again my Asperger's has forced me to understand the importance of allegorical and metaphorical truths, which other people often take for granted.

    Oh, and I've always suspected that Wittgenstein had Asperger's Syndrome...
    Autistic INFP


  4. #84
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    972 so/sp
    Socionics
    EII Ni
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Hell yeah. If something doesn't have a logical explanation (and I can't think of my own), then I dismiss it as nonsense.

    We live in a physical world. Every atom in our body is subject to physical laws. Our bodies are merely interactions between trillions/quadrillions (I don't actually know how many) of atoms. It's not like any of those atoms can choose not to follow physical laws. The whole world/universe is a giant computer simulation.

    To think that there is something that makes the human mind unique is to delude yourself. We happen to specialize in a certain kind of information processing, just like every other animal.

    "God" or whatever has no place in the physical system that is the universe. If God is not physical, how does he affect what is physical? If God is physical, then he has no more control than any other part of the universe, namely, zero.

    If I wanted to, I could try to believe in something "greater" than what is physical, but I would just know I was lying to myself.

    As an INFJ, I've seen people come up with many weird ideas of how the world works just to make themselves comfortable. It makes me sad; they're all delusional. I choose not to be.

    When I was in preschool (I went to Jewish preschool), I wondered when the teachers were going to tell me God was fake just like the Tooth Fairy or Santa. It was so obviously the same logic. When it never happened, I learned something about human nature. It's easy to write off the Tooth Fairy because it's implausible, and even though the same logic applies to God, people don't care -- they just want to be comfortable in their fantasy land.
    I agree, though I must disagree with your "if it is not logical it is meaningless" statement. I've run into lots of very meaningful things that are not very logical. Maybe it's just my Asperger's though, If you've read Thinking in Pictures by the autistic animal behaviorist Temple Grandin you should know what I'm talking about, I tend to have an visual-associational thought process that isn't strictly logical.
    Autistic INFP


  5. #85
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    972 so/sp
    Socionics
    EII Ni
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Whatever, maybe "starting point" isn't the word I should use, I don't know, but I think you see what I mean. He thinks that everything in world should be approached through logic/reasoning/thinking (I'm not using any strict definitions here).

    Now I will be so insolent as to quote a spiritual text written by a pure INFJ, impossible to grasp through Ti.




    Good night.
    Nice quote!
    Autistic INFP


  6. #86
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    972 so/sp
    Socionics
    EII Ni
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paisley1 View Post
    Now the argument's for the existence of God, that I'm surprised you don't know:

    The Ontological Argument:

    1. It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
    2. God exists as an idea in the mind.
    3. A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
    4. Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).
    5. But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
    6. Therefore, God exists.

    The Cosmological Argument:

    1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
    2. Nothing finite and contingent can cause itself.
    3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
    4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

    The Teleological Argument

    1. All things that are designed were preconceived, intended, purposed or contrived.
    2. Preconception, intention, purpose, and contrivance necessitate an intellect, mind or will.
    3. All things that are irreducibly complex display intention and preconception.
    4. The universe contains non-man made things that are irreducibly complex.
    5. Those things display intention and preconception.
    6. Those things necessitate an intellect, mind or will.

    The Fine Tuning of the Universe Argument:

    Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe
    Parameter and Max. Deviation
    Ratio of Electrons:Protons 1:10 to the power of 37
    Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:10 to the power of 40
    Expansion Rate of Universe 1:10 to the power of 55
    Mass of Universe 1:10 to the power of 59
    Cosmological Constant 1:10 to the power of 120

    These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life. The possible answers are an intelligent uncaused first cause or a multiverse.


    The Moral Argument

    1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
    2. Objective moral values do exist. (They are valid and binding whether or not anyone believes in them or not)
    3. Therefore, God does exist.

    I can go into the Historical Argument, but it's probably too contentious for any of you.

    All of these arguments make inference to the best explanation and support normalcy not delusion, when believing in God.

    To quickly answer your question, the full extent of Darwinism, led to the understanding of how to make humanity better through purifying the gene pool, which led to a holocaust. Seemingly logical things can be completely immoral, logical fallacies. I'm simply making the argument, that you can not infer an "ought" from an "is". I'm not putting forward any new philosophical argument.
    All of those "arguments" are mere rationalizations of irrational beliefs.
    Autistic INFP


  7. #87
    Senior Member paisley1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Socionics
    EIE None
    Posts
    369

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    All of those "arguments" are mere rationalizations of irrational beliefs.
    Apologetic arguments supporting the rationale behind only one belief.

    Is it logical to think that out of nothing, everything came into existence? Out of nothing, nothing comes.
    "Truth stands true, independent of whether you agree with it or not."

    "Don't let what matters least, matter most."

    Extroverted (E) 50% Introverted (I) 50%
    Intuitive (N) 62.5% Sensing (S) 37.5%
    Feeling (F) 51.61% Thinking (T) 48.39%
    Judging (J) 51.52% Perceiving (P) 48.48%
    8w9 EIE

Similar Threads

  1. How far divorced from books, film, TV and media portrayals is society becoming?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-05-2011, 01:21 AM
  2. [INFJ] INFJs and Single-Mindedness
    By Kiddo in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 11-23-2009, 06:39 PM
  3. [INFJ] INFJs and Dating
    By Kiddo in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 109
    Last Post: 02-22-2009, 06:42 AM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ and Compliments
    By chippinchunk in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 01-24-2008, 09:20 AM
  5. [INFJ] INFJ and grief
    By tovlo in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-21-2007, 06:49 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO